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I work in the "boring" old insurance industry, based in the midwest. I love reading articles like these, and as I read them I get excited and say to myself "ye

I work in the "boring" old insurance industry, based in the midwest. I love reading articles like these, and as I read them I get excited and say to myself "yea!" and "spot on!". But they seem to center around startups and Silicon Valley. The truth is, when it comes to building, maintaining, and supporting internal, line of business apps, management isn't even pretending to look for high end talent. They want predictability, reliability, and someone who will "fit". I wonder how many people out there fit my profile. That is, they get excited by reading blog posts like these from some of the thought leaders, and desperately want to apply the thinking to their own workplaces, but then feel like we aren't really the target audience.

was_boring 11y ago
I had a job like that once, and it was clear to me I didn't fit there for a variety of reasons so I left because I wanted to make a difference at my job and not be a "resource". I then got a job at a "stable" startup working remotely for twice the pay that the boring industry would pay.
- pc86 11y ago
  No need to create a throw-away account to share your personal experience. I've worked in traditionally boring industries that treated programmers as resources to be allocated (healthcare, logistics). Sometimes it's still possible to make a difference. For example the logistics job I had, we were often the only development resources our clients had, so when they wanted to run a promotion or do something like that, our execution could literally make or break their business.
  - andrewflnr 11y ago
    "was_boring" is a pretty good general-purpose handle IMO. I think they should keep it.
pc86 11y ago
HN obviously has a large bias toward content that is relevant in Silicon Valley (understandably so). This makes it fairly likely that the content that is only relevant to SV still makes its way to the top of the front page from time to time. It may be counter-intuitive, but I find it easier to apply these types of articles to my non-programming work. My wife and I own a gym, and we need to hire personal trainers from time to time. There's a certifying body for that, so it's easy to know if someone is trivially "qualified" for the job. Are we trying to hire the top 1% of trainers in the country? No, we're at best a medium-sized location for our area. Largely what we look for when hiring is how they will fit in with the existing coaching staff, how they will fit in with our existing clientele, and how likely they are to attract new clientele (or bring with them).
- ghaff 11y ago
  You also highlight that there are a lot of jobs out there where you're basically hiring for competence (which includes being dependable, not being difficult to work with) at the right price. There are a lot of professions where, for the mainstream jobs, there really isn't a lot of payback in "greatness."
bdavisx 11y ago
Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.
- wdmeldon 11y ago
  Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.
  - stuxnet79 11y ago
    2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.
    - wdmeldon 11y ago
      It was too long but of course I didn't realize it at the time. From what I've gathered, as long as it isn't with every job, you don't have to stay that long. But don't take my career advice. I only really know what not to do at this point.
  - bdavisx 11y ago
    I moved around in the company, trying to find someplace that was different (e.g. more like a software company) - and I finally did, about 4.5 years ago. The department was outside of the official IT department, because we are vital to the business and have legal reasons to need to move much faster. It was good for a couple of years, but recently, the area I'm in has been getting more like the IT department I left (they are pushing me and other leads to start taking on more "leadership" responsibilities - meaning management type crap, not lead developer) - so I think it's time to move on. And I should mention that I've looked for other jobs in the area (trying to stay local because of family) - and almost no one pays as good as where I'm at. I'm making a bit above average according to Glassdoor (for my location).
devonkim 11y ago
Almost everyone working in enterprise software is in your same boat. In fact, I'd argue the great majority of software developers outside Silicon Valley are either working for or with enterprise stacks and products & services. Sure, there's indie game developers and some boutique software shops working on small sites, but fundamentally most of their customers are businesses involved in FIRE (finance, insurance, real estate) business verticals or healthcare.

was_boring 11y ago

I had a job like that once, and it was clear to me I didn't fit there for a variety of reasons so I left because I wanted to make a difference at my job and not be a "resource". I then got a job at a "stable" startup working remotely for twice the pay that the boring industry would pay.

pc86 11y ago
No need to create a throw-away account to share your personal experience. I've worked in traditionally boring industries that treated programmers as resources to be allocated (healthcare, logistics). Sometimes it's still possible to make a difference. For example the logistics job I had, we were often the only development resources our clients had, so when they wanted to run a promotion or do something like that, our execution could literally make or break their business.
- andrewflnr 11y ago
  "was_boring" is a pretty good general-purpose handle IMO. I think they should keep it.

pc86 11y ago

HN obviously has a large bias toward content that is relevant in Silicon Valley (understandably so). This makes it fairly likely that the content that is only relevant to SV still makes its way to the top of the front page from time to time. It may be counter-intuitive, but I find it easier to apply these types of articles to my non-programming work. My wife and I own a gym, and we need to hire personal trainers from time to time. There's a certifying body for that, so it's easy to know if someone is trivially "qualified" for the job. Are we trying to hire the top 1% of trainers in the country? No, we're at best a medium-sized location for our area. Largely what we look for when hiring is how they will fit in with the existing coaching staff, how they will fit in with our existing clientele, and how likely they are to attract new clientele (or bring with them).

ghaff 11y ago
You also highlight that there are a lot of jobs out there where you're basically hiring for competence (which includes being dependable, not being difficult to work with) at the right price. There are a lot of professions where, for the mainstream jobs, there really isn't a lot of payback in "greatness."

bdavisx 11y ago

Yep, me too, midwest huge insurance company. From what I've seen, there are very few people in mid to upper management that think developers are anything more than a cog in the machine (and only 1 who's ever stated that 'publicly') - I'm looking to leave after 11 years - I've given up on it changing.

wdmeldon 11y ago
Wow. 11 years before you gave up on them changing. That's both impressive and depressing. I lasted about 2 and half years last place I worked.
- stuxnet79 11y ago
  2 and a half years also feels too long to me. But in order to not look like a "job hopper" is that the standard time I should expect to stay at a place or is 1 year good enough.
  - wdmeldon 11y ago
    It was too long but of course I didn't realize it at the time. From what I've gathered, as long as it isn't with every job, you don't have to stay that long. But don't take my career advice. I only really know what not to do at this point.
- bdavisx 11y ago
  I moved around in the company, trying to find someplace that was different (e.g. more like a software company) - and I finally did, about 4.5 years ago. The department was outside of the official IT department, because we are vital to the business and have legal reasons to need to move much faster. It was good for a couple of years, but recently, the area I'm in has been getting more like the IT department I left (they are pushing me and other leads to start taking on more "leadership" responsibilities - meaning management type crap, not lead developer) - so I think it's time to move on. And I should mention that I've looked for other jobs in the area (trying to stay local because of family) - and almost no one pays as good as where I'm at. I'm making a bit above average according to Glassdoor (for my location).

devonkim 11y ago

Almost everyone working in enterprise software is in your same boat. In fact, I'd argue the great majority of software developers outside Silicon Valley are either working for or with enterprise stacks and products & services. Sure, there's indie game developers and some boutique software shops working on small sites, but fundamentally most of their customers are businesses involved in FIRE (finance, insurance, real estate) business verticals or healthcare.