6 ms·

Before the site has given me any reason to join, it makes me choose between 7 virtually indistinguishable options of providers with subtle technical advantages

Before the site has given me any reason to join, it makes me choose between 7 virtually indistinguishable options of providers with subtle technical advantages and disadvantages. Ah, GNU projects. Never change.

ywecur 11y ago
It could be as easy as just recommending one at random every time you load the page. I don't understand why they don't implement this.
- mattl 11y ago
  It's a static site, but also maintaining a huge list of servers, monitoring them, etc seems like a lot of work when the real goal should be "start your own server"
  - nickik 11y ago
    For most people "start your own server" is not the real goal. People who want to run their own will choice to do so and are able to look in the docs. People who just want twitter should just get that.
    - mattl 11y ago
      People who just want Twitter will find GNU social a very different experience immediately anyway, and I'd rather leave that offering to a particular server (such as Quitter) rather than the whole project.
gosukiwi 11y ago
Haha I don't even know which one to join. Feels like I'll make the wrong choice. GNU projects always remind me why programmers alone isn't enough, apps also need good design and UX.
- progman 11y ago
  > GNU projects always remind me why programmers alone isn't enough, apps also need good design and UX. Some people need others to think for them. Some people like to make their own decisions. GNU is for the latter ones. GNU has always been freedom of choice. Design is overrated. Functionality and reliability are more important. Even Apple has to admit that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11061111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11061111
  - TheSockStealer 11y ago
    Yea.... No. If you are presented with 6 choices and you cannot reasonably tell the difference between them without spending 15-30 minutes researching all of the options, you have a bad user experience. Design is important. People like using things that look good. UX is vital. If a user can't figure out how to navigate through an app in a reasonable amount of time without a great deal of existing knowledge (which they may not even know where to find), your app sucks. People, even technical ones, will abandon it, even if it is more reliable and has more features than the next guy. Making things that are intuitive is really difficult. That is why people get advanced degrees in it and start consultancies that specialize in it. Usability does not just stop at GUIs on your laptop, but also jet fighter cockpits, vending machines, ATMs etc... Think about this, what good is a jet fighter if nobody can actually fly it? That is not even to begin talking about how people with low vision can operate things. WCAG exists for a reason. Bottom line... usability is really important.
    - stcredzero 11y ago
      > If a user can't figure out how to navigate through an app in a reasonable amount of time without a great deal of existing knowledge Having watched kids, teens, and 20-somethings, I've concluded that "a reasonable amount of time" to them is something on the order of 5 seconds on the outside. On a PC, they might look around and thoughtfully click on things. On a tablet or phone app, they just mash their fingers for about 3 seconds, then if they haven't seen something, move on. This even extends to 20-somethings and game controllers. I've seen 20-somethings walk up to an 80's emulated arcade game, waggle the sticks on a controller for 2 seconds, not understand why the screen was shaking, then walk away.
Tepix 11y ago
That's because the story links to the "try" page, the normal page is at https://gnu.io/social/ https://gnu.io/social/
- danfolkes 11y ago
  That page pretty much just links to the same cluttered page.
- paulgb 11y ago
  The "try" link is the first, most prominent call to action on that page.
motters 11y ago
It's just not a centralized paradigm. Joining an existing server means you'll be subject to whatever moderation policy the admin has. Or you can just run your own server and then federate with the rest, as I do.
- rocky1138 11y ago
  There needs to be a much better solution to the use case of having to jettison from an existing federation that might be disappearing soon (or where the admin changes the rules and you no longer want to be there). Currently, the only fix is to create a brand new account on a different federation and start again.
  - motters 11y ago
    Again that may just be the wrong paradigm. If you are especially concerned about disappearance of a server then just run your own installation. This is partially why I'm making debian packages for GNU Social, to make that process easy. There isn't really any "different federation". You just follow whoever you want to follow, regardless of what server they're on.
    - rocky1138 11y ago
      Yes, but if you use someone else's install and they disappear, you lose all your followers and everyone you follow. You have to start from scratch.
m52go 11y ago
Yeah...as a tireless social media critic & privacy fanatic, I imagine I'm in their target demographic. But the presentation was so confusing that even I ran out of patience trying to understand what's going on.
dilap 11y ago
http://imgur.com/4K5rsbO http://imgur.com/4K5rsbO I can't even.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mattl 11y ago
  "Something which looks like Twitter, great for new users coming over from Twitter"
  - dilap 11y ago
    So "Quitter" is obliquely referencing someone that has "quit twitter"? I guess there's a certain logic behind it, then -- but as a name that (1) creates a positive emotional feeling and (2) is intuitively obvious, it falls very short.
    - mattl 11y ago
      Quitter is someone else's interface to GNU social. You'd have to ask them about it. I'm not sure if the founders of email would care for names like Thunderbird and Icedove, but you'd have to ask them.
      - dilap 11y ago
        i love the openness of a protocol approach (like email), but i just don't see how it's going to have a chance if it falls down this badly as a product-as-a-whole. what lessons can we learn from slack vs irc? from whatsapp vs email? from usenet vs reddit? etc.
        mattl 11y ago
        I've not really used Slack, sorry. WhatsApp is SMS, isn't it? But GNU social isn't a product. If you want to take it, add your own interface, marketing, etc... I think you'd have a product.
bcg1 11y ago
Perhaps instead of just complaining, people could help out with the documentation: https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social Then again, you're right... some things never change.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Except we don't know enough about the project to do so. And it seems like those involved in the project that could do so have no interest in doing so. This is not a "blame the people who complain for not contributing" thing. This is a "the people who are presenting the project are doing a horrible job of it."
  - mattl 11y ago
    I'm the GNU social founder, so please talk to me about a horrible job. I think there's a misunderstanding in this submission, and perhaps around the project in general. The goal of the project isn't to provide a social network, or to provide an alternative to Twitter, but rather to provide some software that can be used for a bunch of things, and using it instead of Twitter is a subset of that. I chose the name because I didn't want people to think of it as a "GNU social network" (GNUbook, GNUspace, etc) but rather just software that could be used to enable communication between people. Some people have made interfaces for it that mimic Twitter, and a lot of people are using it for that kind of communication, but I don't think the project website has to make it easy for people who want to quit Twitter to use GNU social, but we can certainly point people at servers and interfaces that do that job.
mattl 11y ago
Those are servers run by our community. I'd be interested to know if you have any alternative ideas: we don't want to pick one any one instance, but we want to give new users a thing to try. Do we just flip through a big list and show one per page load?
- JSoet 11y ago
  I think it would be good to make it clearer that it doesn't matter what server you're on, that you can follow people on any other server (I don't really know anything about the project, I'm just basing this assumption on what other people have said in this thread, and so a lot of what I say below may be incorrect, but I'm just trying to make suggestions). Right now you have "Join the federated social web No matter which server you're on, you're part of the family!" which mentions 'federated social web' - a term most potential users probably aren't familiar with; and 'family' which doesn't have a very specific definition (i.e. is it part of the same family just because you're running the same software or does this imply a greater connection between the different servers - my understanding is that it's the second, but I'm not really sure) I would suggest adding more info such as "You can join any server and still follow people on separate servers. Once you have an understanding of how the system works you may want to start your own server so that you can choose your own settings and have complete control of your own data!" Also, the home page is very sparse on info. IMO the 'What is GNU Social' section shouldn't start with info about the StatusNet project, since anyone new to GNU social wouldn't know what that is. It should be something like "GNU Social is a free and open source social network (i.e. a replacement for Facebook/Twitter). It is a protocol that allows anyone to run their own server (or join someone else's!) and connect to people around the world. You can have control of your own data and the communication is as secure as you make it!" and then you can add the other info. Some other suggestions: The about page doesn't really say anything about what GNU Social actually is, it's just a history. The FAQ page should be linked, or included in the same page. The FAQ page is pretty sparse and still doesn't tell much about what it actually is used for. And given the sparsity of the rest of the site, I would suggest including the FAQ page as a top level header, rather than under Resources. And a few more suggestions on questions: "What does the federated social web mean? - It means you can run your own server and connect to other people with their own servers" or something along those lines "How do I choose which server to join?" - You can join any server and still connect to people on separate servers, or you can start your own server! "How do I install it myself??" - link to the install info Also, I just clicked through to the git page, and the info you have there is a much better intro imo: "It helps people in a community, company or group to exchange short status updates, do polls, announce events, or other social activities (and you can add more!). Users can choose which people to "follow" and receive only their friends' or colleagues' status messages. It provides a similar service to sites like Twitter, Google+ or Facebook, but is much more awesome."
tjr 11y ago
They also link to this: http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/List_of_Independent_Statusnet_Instances http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/List_of_Independent_Statusn...
anonbanker 11y ago
Thanks for filing the feature request for the "I don't care" button during user setup! It's little contributions like yours that make GNU strong!

ywecur 11y ago

It could be as easy as just recommending one at random every time you load the page. I don't understand why they don't implement this.

mattl 11y ago
It's a static site, but also maintaining a huge list of servers, monitoring them, etc seems like a lot of work when the real goal should be "start your own server"
- nickik 11y ago
  For most people "start your own server" is not the real goal. People who want to run their own will choice to do so and are able to look in the docs. People who just want twitter should just get that.
  - mattl 11y ago
    People who just want Twitter will find GNU social a very different experience immediately anyway, and I'd rather leave that offering to a particular server (such as Quitter) rather than the whole project.

gosukiwi 11y ago

Haha I don't even know which one to join. Feels like I'll make the wrong choice. GNU projects always remind me why programmers alone isn't enough, apps also need good design and UX.

progman 11y ago
> GNU projects always remind me why programmers alone isn't enough, apps also need good design and UX. Some people need others to think for them. Some people like to make their own decisions. GNU is for the latter ones. GNU has always been freedom of choice. Design is overrated. Functionality and reliability are more important. Even Apple has to admit that. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11061111 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11061111
- TheSockStealer 11y ago
  Yea.... No. If you are presented with 6 choices and you cannot reasonably tell the difference between them without spending 15-30 minutes researching all of the options, you have a bad user experience. Design is important. People like using things that look good. UX is vital. If a user can't figure out how to navigate through an app in a reasonable amount of time without a great deal of existing knowledge (which they may not even know where to find), your app sucks. People, even technical ones, will abandon it, even if it is more reliable and has more features than the next guy. Making things that are intuitive is really difficult. That is why people get advanced degrees in it and start consultancies that specialize in it. Usability does not just stop at GUIs on your laptop, but also jet fighter cockpits, vending machines, ATMs etc... Think about this, what good is a jet fighter if nobody can actually fly it? That is not even to begin talking about how people with low vision can operate things. WCAG exists for a reason. Bottom line... usability is really important.
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    > If a user can't figure out how to navigate through an app in a reasonable amount of time without a great deal of existing knowledge Having watched kids, teens, and 20-somethings, I've concluded that "a reasonable amount of time" to them is something on the order of 5 seconds on the outside. On a PC, they might look around and thoughtfully click on things. On a tablet or phone app, they just mash their fingers for about 3 seconds, then if they haven't seen something, move on. This even extends to 20-somethings and game controllers. I've seen 20-somethings walk up to an 80's emulated arcade game, waggle the sticks on a controller for 2 seconds, not understand why the screen was shaking, then walk away.

Tepix 11y ago

That's because the story links to the "try" page, the normal page is at https://gnu.io/social/ https://gnu.io/social/

danfolkes 11y ago
That page pretty much just links to the same cluttered page.
paulgb 11y ago
The "try" link is the first, most prominent call to action on that page.

motters 11y ago

It's just not a centralized paradigm. Joining an existing server means you'll be subject to whatever moderation policy the admin has. Or you can just run your own server and then federate with the rest, as I do.

rocky1138 11y ago
There needs to be a much better solution to the use case of having to jettison from an existing federation that might be disappearing soon (or where the admin changes the rules and you no longer want to be there). Currently, the only fix is to create a brand new account on a different federation and start again.
- motters 11y ago
  Again that may just be the wrong paradigm. If you are especially concerned about disappearance of a server then just run your own installation. This is partially why I'm making debian packages for GNU Social, to make that process easy. There isn't really any "different federation". You just follow whoever you want to follow, regardless of what server they're on.
  - rocky1138 11y ago
    Yes, but if you use someone else's install and they disappear, you lose all your followers and everyone you follow. You have to start from scratch.

m52go 11y ago

Yeah...as a tireless social media critic & privacy fanatic, I imagine I'm in their target demographic. But the presentation was so confusing that even I ran out of patience trying to understand what's going on.

dilap 11y ago

http://imgur.com/4K5rsbO http://imgur.com/4K5rsbO I can't even.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
mattl 11y ago
"Something which looks like Twitter, great for new users coming over from Twitter"
- dilap 11y ago
  So "Quitter" is obliquely referencing someone that has "quit twitter"? I guess there's a certain logic behind it, then -- but as a name that (1) creates a positive emotional feeling and (2) is intuitively obvious, it falls very short.
  - mattl 11y ago
    Quitter is someone else's interface to GNU social. You'd have to ask them about it. I'm not sure if the founders of email would care for names like Thunderbird and Icedove, but you'd have to ask them.
    - dilap 11y ago
      i love the openness of a protocol approach (like email), but i just don't see how it's going to have a chance if it falls down this badly as a product-as-a-whole. what lessons can we learn from slack vs irc? from whatsapp vs email? from usenet vs reddit? etc.
      - mattl 11y ago
        I've not really used Slack, sorry. WhatsApp is SMS, isn't it? But GNU social isn't a product. If you want to take it, add your own interface, marketing, etc... I think you'd have a product.

bcg1 11y ago

Perhaps instead of just complaining, people could help out with the documentation: https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social https://git.gnu.io/gnu/gnu-social Then again, you're right... some things never change.

st3v3r 11y ago
Except we don't know enough about the project to do so. And it seems like those involved in the project that could do so have no interest in doing so. This is not a "blame the people who complain for not contributing" thing. This is a "the people who are presenting the project are doing a horrible job of it."
- mattl 11y ago
  I'm the GNU social founder, so please talk to me about a horrible job. I think there's a misunderstanding in this submission, and perhaps around the project in general. The goal of the project isn't to provide a social network, or to provide an alternative to Twitter, but rather to provide some software that can be used for a bunch of things, and using it instead of Twitter is a subset of that. I chose the name because I didn't want people to think of it as a "GNU social network" (GNUbook, GNUspace, etc) but rather just software that could be used to enable communication between people. Some people have made interfaces for it that mimic Twitter, and a lot of people are using it for that kind of communication, but I don't think the project website has to make it easy for people who want to quit Twitter to use GNU social, but we can certainly point people at servers and interfaces that do that job.

mattl 11y ago

Those are servers run by our community. I'd be interested to know if you have any alternative ideas: we don't want to pick one any one instance, but we want to give new users a thing to try. Do we just flip through a big list and show one per page load?

JSoet 11y ago
I think it would be good to make it clearer that it doesn't matter what server you're on, that you can follow people on any other server (I don't really know anything about the project, I'm just basing this assumption on what other people have said in this thread, and so a lot of what I say below may be incorrect, but I'm just trying to make suggestions). Right now you have "Join the federated social web No matter which server you're on, you're part of the family!" which mentions 'federated social web' - a term most potential users probably aren't familiar with; and 'family' which doesn't have a very specific definition (i.e. is it part of the same family just because you're running the same software or does this imply a greater connection between the different servers - my understanding is that it's the second, but I'm not really sure) I would suggest adding more info such as "You can join any server and still follow people on separate servers. Once you have an understanding of how the system works you may want to start your own server so that you can choose your own settings and have complete control of your own data!" Also, the home page is very sparse on info. IMO the 'What is GNU Social' section shouldn't start with info about the StatusNet project, since anyone new to GNU social wouldn't know what that is. It should be something like "GNU Social is a free and open source social network (i.e. a replacement for Facebook/Twitter). It is a protocol that allows anyone to run their own server (or join someone else's!) and connect to people around the world. You can have control of your own data and the communication is as secure as you make it!" and then you can add the other info. Some other suggestions: The about page doesn't really say anything about what GNU Social actually is, it's just a history. The FAQ page should be linked, or included in the same page. The FAQ page is pretty sparse and still doesn't tell much about what it actually is used for. And given the sparsity of the rest of the site, I would suggest including the FAQ page as a top level header, rather than under Resources. And a few more suggestions on questions: "What does the federated social web mean? - It means you can run your own server and connect to other people with their own servers" or something along those lines "How do I choose which server to join?" - You can join any server and still connect to people on separate servers, or you can start your own server! "How do I install it myself??" - link to the install info Also, I just clicked through to the git page, and the info you have there is a much better intro imo: "It helps people in a community, company or group to exchange short status updates, do polls, announce events, or other social activities (and you can add more!). Users can choose which people to "follow" and receive only their friends' or colleagues' status messages. It provides a similar service to sites like Twitter, Google+ or Facebook, but is much more awesome."

tjr 11y ago

They also link to this: http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/List_of_Independent_Statusnet_Instances http://www.skilledtests.com/wiki/List_of_Independent_Statusn...

anonbanker 11y ago

Thanks for filing the feature request for the "I don't care" button during user setup! It's little contributions like yours that make GNU strong!