7 ms·

The problem is they explicitly had to create something like Bay Area. They needed the engineers to be @ place. And the same can happen anywhere if you recreate

by suryon 11y ago

The problem is they explicitly had to create something like Bay Area. They needed the engineers to be @ place. And the same can happen anywhere if you recreate the Bay Area. Solution: remote work Honestly...160k salaries for some sw roles are silly. But there is need for them because the costs of living are so high. That's plain bs.

shkkmo 11y ago
Solution: Concentrate your tech workers in a area that isn't hostile to expanding the housing supply when needed.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  Which narrows it down to Las Vegas, and Las Vegas is hell on Earth.
  - acconsta 11y ago
    New York manages http://www.wsj.com/articles/construction-in-new-york-city-goes-through-the-roof-1438217274 http://www.wsj.com/articles/construction-in-new-york-city-go...
  - saryant 11y ago
    Vegas, Houston, Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta...
    - toomuchtodo 11y ago
      I'll give you Denver, definitely high quality of life in Colorado. Not Vegas, most definitely not Texas (save for Austin), not Phoenix, and Atlanta is nowhere near friendly unless you work from home and never need to get into a car. Chattanooga is good, Nashville is good (but getting pricey), lots of space and smart people in North Carolina (Asheville or Raleigh Durham Research Triangle Park). I've heard good things about Des Moines (not a fan of the cold though). At this point, its just masochistic for SF startups to require their tech staff to live in the area, and throw away so much of their income to landlords.
      - saryant 11y ago
        I lived in Houston and San Antonio for several years. I grew up in the Bay Area and I now live in Boulder. I've also lived in Wyoming and France. Having sampled a fair number of places, I can safely say quality of life in Houston and San Antonio is far better than people on HN believe.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > I can safely say quality of life in Houston and San Antonio is far better than people on HN believe. Unless you have a family. Texas schools are absolutely terrible.
        saryant 11y ago
        That's a broad and rather incomplete generalization. I spent two years in a California high school and two years in a Texas high school. I have seen first hand how terrible schools can be in CA and, conversely, how fantastic they can be in Texas. For reference, I'm comparing Benicia HS in the North Bay with Seven Lakes HS in suburban Houston. In California, teachers were restricted to six pieces of copier paper per student per year. One security guard for 1500 students. Ancient textbooks and the most antagonistic administration you can imagine. AP classes? Gone. School buses? Discontinued. Arts and music? Better hope your parents can pay for it. Between my sophomore and junior years I moved to Texas. Seven Lakes was the most expensive school ever built. We didn't just have a computer science class, we had a computer science department. Our AP US History teacher had more students score 4 or 5 on the AP exam than any other US history teacher in the country. To Benicia's credit, their band was actually quite a bit better. And just to underline the difference in affordability, the average home price in Benicia at the time was $629k. Katy's average was $161k. Safe to say I have no regrets about having left California.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Let's take a look at the data: "Texas earns C-minus, ranks 39th in nation on education ranking" * 52 percent of 3- and 4-year-olds in the state are not in school. * Hispanics had the lowest rate of 4-year-olds enrolled in preschool at 39 percent. Meanwhile about half of black, white and Asian 4-year-olds were enrolled. * 64 percent of of 3- and 4-year-olds in households earning at least $100,000 or more attend preschool compared to 40 percent of those living in households earning less than $20,000. * About 44 percent of those enrolled in Texas preschool attended a private school. http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/texas-earns-c-minus-ranks-39th-in-nation-on-education-ranking.html/ http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/texas-earns-c-mi...
  - iron_ball 11y ago
    Correction: expanding the housing supply vertically.
  - brobinson 11y ago
    What don't you like about Las Vegas? What about the surrounding areas (Henderson, etc.)?
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Concentrate your tech workers in a area that isn't hostile to expanding the housing supply when needed. Sure, you can try that. But if the place doesn't offer the environmental features that make the Bay Area attractive, your going to have to offer them a premium to live there; lower housing costs may cover some of that so that you are only paying the same, but may not. The Bay Area is expensive, more than anything else, because people want to live there.
mason55 11y ago
> Honestly...160k salaries for some sw roles are silly When you think about the value that a single SWE can create it's not that crazy
- eitally 11y ago
  That's not a fair way of looking at it, though, from a business-owner's perspective. You need to look at the overall market, and you can find equally good developers in cheaper parts of the country for fractions (50-60%) of that cost.
  - s73v3r 11y ago
    It's an entirely fair way of looking at it. Just because other developers live in cheaper areas of the country doesn't change how much value a good developer is bringing to your business.
    - suryon 11y ago
      Nope. They are overvalued. Iphone will cost the same or with small differences everywhere in the world. Ironically in some "poor" places it's more expensive than in the US. The costs of living in SF are too insane.It will not create more jobs but instead push bigger chunks of money to fewer people that will not really benefit from them.

by suryon 11y ago

shkkmo 11y ago

Solution: Concentrate your tech workers in a area that isn't hostile to expanding the housing supply when needed.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
Which narrows it down to Las Vegas, and Las Vegas is hell on Earth.
- acconsta 11y ago
  New York manages http://www.wsj.com/articles/construction-in-new-york-city-goes-through-the-roof-1438217274 http://www.wsj.com/articles/construction-in-new-york-city-go...
- saryant 11y ago
  Vegas, Houston, Phoenix, Denver, Atlanta...
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    I'll give you Denver, definitely high quality of life in Colorado. Not Vegas, most definitely not Texas (save for Austin), not Phoenix, and Atlanta is nowhere near friendly unless you work from home and never need to get into a car. Chattanooga is good, Nashville is good (but getting pricey), lots of space and smart people in North Carolina (Asheville or Raleigh Durham Research Triangle Park). I've heard good things about Des Moines (not a fan of the cold though). At this point, its just masochistic for SF startups to require their tech staff to live in the area, and throw away so much of their income to landlords.
    - saryant 11y ago
      I lived in Houston and San Antonio for several years. I grew up in the Bay Area and I now live in Boulder. I've also lived in Wyoming and France. Having sampled a fair number of places, I can safely say quality of life in Houston and San Antonio is far better than people on HN believe.
      - toomuchtodo 11y ago
        > I can safely say quality of life in Houston and San Antonio is far better than people on HN believe. Unless you have a family. Texas schools are absolutely terrible.
        saryant 11y ago
        That's a broad and rather incomplete generalization. I spent two years in a California high school and two years in a Texas high school. I have seen first hand how terrible schools can be in CA and, conversely, how fantastic they can be in Texas. For reference, I'm comparing Benicia HS in the North Bay with Seven Lakes HS in suburban Houston. In California, teachers were restricted to six pieces of copier paper per student per year. One security guard for 1500 students. Ancient textbooks and the most antagonistic administration you can imagine. AP classes? Gone. School buses? Discontinued. Arts and music? Better hope your parents can pay for it. Between my sophomore and junior years I moved to Texas. Seven Lakes was the most expensive school ever built. We didn't just have a computer science class, we had a computer science department. Our AP US History teacher had more students score 4 or 5 on the AP exam than any other US history teacher in the country. To Benicia's credit, their band was actually quite a bit better. And just to underline the difference in affordability, the average home price in Benicia at the time was $629k. Katy's average was $161k. Safe to say I have no regrets about having left California.
        toomuchtodo 11y ago
        Let's take a look at the data: "Texas earns C-minus, ranks 39th in nation on education ranking" * 52 percent of 3- and 4-year-olds in the state are not in school. * Hispanics had the lowest rate of 4-year-olds enrolled in preschool at 39 percent. Meanwhile about half of black, white and Asian 4-year-olds were enrolled. * 64 percent of of 3- and 4-year-olds in households earning at least $100,000 or more attend preschool compared to 40 percent of those living in households earning less than $20,000. * About 44 percent of those enrolled in Texas preschool attended a private school. http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/texas-earns-c-minus-ranks-39th-in-nation-on-education-ranking.html/ http://educationblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/texas-earns-c-mi...
- iron_ball 11y ago
  Correction: expanding the housing supply vertically.
- brobinson 11y ago
  What don't you like about Las Vegas? What about the surrounding areas (Henderson, etc.)?
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Concentrate your tech workers in a area that isn't hostile to expanding the housing supply when needed. Sure, you can try that. But if the place doesn't offer the environmental features that make the Bay Area attractive, your going to have to offer them a premium to live there; lower housing costs may cover some of that so that you are only paying the same, but may not. The Bay Area is expensive, more than anything else, because people want to live there.

mason55 11y ago

> Honestly...160k salaries for some sw roles are silly When you think about the value that a single SWE can create it's not that crazy

eitally 11y ago
That's not a fair way of looking at it, though, from a business-owner's perspective. You need to look at the overall market, and you can find equally good developers in cheaper parts of the country for fractions (50-60%) of that cost.
- s73v3r 11y ago
  It's an entirely fair way of looking at it. Just because other developers live in cheaper areas of the country doesn't change how much value a good developer is bringing to your business.
  - suryon 11y ago
    Nope. They are overvalued. Iphone will cost the same or with small differences everywhere in the world. Ironically in some "poor" places it's more expensive than in the US. The costs of living in SF are too insane.It will not create more jobs but instead push bigger chunks of money to fewer people that will not really benefit from them.