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Do Not Disclose Your Salary to Recruiters
- abofh 11y agoWhen you know you're above market, it's not unreasonable to disclose, knowing they'll go to your old employer and verify you are the "real" deal. There's little that's a more powerful statement of your value to your prior employer as the salary you'd previously negotiated.
- exstudent2 11y agoIf you do that, you're only going to get an offer slightly above what you currently make. Even if you're way above market, it's worth having them make the first offer. You can potentially negotiate it well above your current compensation from there.
- abofh 11y agoIf cash is your only metric, I agree. When I'm negotiating for equity at a startup, what the "big boys" paid is a good metric for my expectations on equity+cash comp -- I understand you can't give me "big boy" cash, but "funny money" is very near free - so let's talk percentages...
- exstudent2 11y agoI would still insist on them making the first offer. If they offer $X /year and Y% of equity in options, you can still say: Y is going to have to come up quite a bit since X is too low. When they make the first offer you have all the options. When you make the first offer you may inadvertently undercut yourself.
- davidgrenier 11y agoAre you suggesting the previous employer is allowed to divulge that kind of information?
- abofh 11y agoTypically, confirming prior salary (and if you're eligible for re-hire) is about the only thing an employer can divulge without much risk.
- myblake 11y agoSeriously, read this post, listen to this post. I am a terrible negotiator (as in I have taken pay cuts because jobs seemed interesting and paid sticker price for cars) and hate it like 95% of the rest of software engineers but it's how the game is played and we're both ourselves individually and ourselves as a group a disservice by not protecting this information.
- fsloth 11y agoWhy do you say 95% of software engineers hate price negotiations? This would imply 95% of software engineers are unaware of their fair market price and thus feel ill prepared for the most critical negotiations process of their foreseeable future (even if that future extends only a few months or years). It's only a job - you offer time and professional experience for a set price and the prospective employer evaluates the value proposition. Society at large does not work as a huge family - this does not mean that it's a dog eat dog world but it's good to have some negotioations theory under ones belt as one becomes a seasoned professional.
- paulhauggis 11y agoWait, what happened to freely disclosing your salary to everyone? Remember the hashtag movement?? You mean to tell me that this is actually a bad idea?
- dantillberg 11y agoDisclosing your salary to fellow employees helps them by increasing their ability to bargain effectively with their employer. (and disclosing salaries to each other helps both of you) Similarly, disclosing your salary to a potential employer helps them by increasing their ability to bargain effectively with you.
- niccaluim 11y agoDisclosing to everyone would do away with the issues raised by the article. If everyone knew everyone's salary, there would be no underwater price-fixing scheme, and disclosing to recruiters would do no harm to you and your colleagues' negotiating positions.
- minimaxir 11y agoThe intent of the #talkpay movement was to identify disparities between employees of the same position, possibly due to extrinsic factors like gender: http://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/talkpay-topped-twitter http://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/talkpay-topped-twit... This article is more about negotiation.
- sageikosa 11y ago#demagoguery
- edgyswingset 11y agoThe Twitter movement was about gathering information so that those who are underpaid can realize how underpaid they are and potentially change that. This post seems to be more about at a personal level, and not giving in when the salary negotiations start.
- abannin 11y agoRecruiters are often paid x% of one year's base salary. In this case, your interests are aligned with the interest of the recruiter. In my experience, recruiters are 'box checkers'. They have little to no knowledge of your skill set or the skills required for the job outside of buzz words that can be printed on a resume. The reason recruiters ask for your salary is not to engage in price fixing but to ensure that they pursue a placement where 1) the candidate is getting a pay bump and 2) the candidate is priced competitively.
- SandB0x 11y agoThe recruiter wants to maximise (probability of you getting the job) x (recruiter cut) x (your salary) and they also want to maximise the first term. It doesn't necessarily matter if the job is the best option for you, from their point of view.
- brianwawok 11y ago> Recruiters are often paid x% of one year's base salary. In this case, your interests are aligned with the interest of the recruiter. This is often true, but not exactly true. Freakanomics has a study on something similar, real estate agents. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jO_w6f8Ck https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17jO_w6f8Ck The difference between you making 130k and 150k may only be 2k difference for the recruiter, which in the interest of getting the job filled is very small. However to YOU, the difference is 20k which can be life altering.
- abannin 11y agoI think the better counter argument is that many recruiters work on retainer, which lowers the marginal incentive for a hire.
- brianwawok 11y agoOr of course internal recruiters, which want to minimize the cost to the company.
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- qudat 11y agoIgnoring the recruiter problem for a second, should I ever feel obligated to disclose salary information? I have had potential employers straight up ask me what my current salary is, should I just tell them I'm not going to answer that question?
- SandB0x 11y agoJust tell them it's confidential.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoInternally, sharing your salary with co-workers is federally protected speech. You could argue to a recruiter that your salary exposed publicly is sharing trade secrets.
- jsight 11y agoKeepin mind that the actual protections here are relatively weak.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoAre you saying you have no recourse if you're fired for sharing your salary information?
- Teodolfo 11y agoNot in Calfornia: http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=LAB§ionNum=232 http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection... Even federally arguing that current salary is a trade secret is a legal gray area.
- toomuchtodo 11y agoThank you for that citation! I'm in Illinois at the moment, but California is more relevant for an HN discussion.
- tomjen3 11y agoAsk yourself how much of a salary increase would I like to see, then add that to your current salary and say that sum when asked. The recruiter knows you are not going to take a salary that is below what you currently make, so they will have to offer you a good salary or give the job to somebody else. Also go read "A Strategy of Conflict", which will enable you to understand and analyze all sorts of negotiations.
- exstudent2 11y agoAs stated in the article, it's best to ask them for their budget. If I have any interest at all I clearly state these two things on first contact with a recruiter: 1. I don't discuss my current or past compensation. 2. Before I engage at all, I need to know what the baseline salary and compensation package is for the role in question. If they're coming to you, you have 100% of the negotiation leverage.
- davidgrenier 11y agoToo bad this article makes the flawed assumption that getting a higher salary is just better. I recommend reading Kahneman... here: http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full.pdf http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489.full.pdf
- minimaxir 11y agoThat's a rather poor interpretation of the study. The study profiles salary among different income groups, not the difference between $110k/year and $120k/year.
- davidgrenier 11y agoI read the paper but grant my ability to understand it is limited. My interpretation is built on what's discussed at the end of Kahneman's Ted presentation: https://youtu.be/XgRlrBl-7Yg?t=1015 https://youtu.be/XgRlrBl-7Yg?t=1015 Is that why the downvote? I linked the paper people can make their own interpretation... that's at least as praise worthy as "common sense".
- totalrobe 11y agoThis paper is such bullshit unless you adjust for regional COL. 75K a year is less than half the median income in my zip code.
- xacaxulu 11y agoNever never. The market is competitive. Just tell them "I'd be interested to hear how your company/client values my experience" or "I'm open to competitive offers". I've received crazy good job offers by simply never revealing salary.
- Quiark 11y agoEh, obviously. Now imagine my surprise when I came to Hong Kong and started to see candidates' current salary on their CVs without even being asked for it. Not to mention that many companies do 'require' it. Next time I should claim it's confidential. Just to see how they react to a novel situation.
- thenewwazoo 11y agoI've done this. It makes recruiters very, very uncomfortable. It lets you retain all your bargaining power. It's also very, very hard to stick to, since there's often an employment offer on the line.
- bhaile 11y agoPrevious discussion on same article with interesting comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481487 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9481487
- antjanus 11y agoThis is definitely a hard lesson to learn for many. Recruiters often cite that it's a routine question. But just because it is, doesn't mean you should answer it. I've seen some recruiters straight up refuse to work with me when I wouldn't disclose my current salary. Very glad they did.
- meatysnapper 11y agoIt depends. If this a decent headhunter, and not just some chump recruiter trying to find lukewarm bodies, then they are trying to answer the question: "What will it take for you to switch jobs?" No problem with telling them your current salary- their goal is to offer you something better, and you can straight up say I'd need 30% more to switch. Remember, they get paid a % of your salary to get you!
- oskarth 11y agoIs there a crowdsourced list of startups that use shady recruiting practices somewhere? Not too long ago I was approached by a recruiter for a Unicorn company that repeatedly refused to move forward in the process before I disclosed my "accepted salary range" (asking for their budget, as people have suggested, gave me no response either). This was before I had even met a single person employed at the company. Normally I would have gone around the person in question, but this experience left a really bad impression of the company to me.
- ojgeojgaew 11y agoThe ideal is not to say nothing, but to know what you're worth and state that politely. Most candidates who say nothing are either underpaid or overpaid and are trying to dance around that, instead of simply reframing the conversation to be about your market value.
- MisterBastahrd 11y agoSure, don't tell them what you're earning. Tell them what it would take to get you to leave... plus 15% for the inevitable downward negotiation with the manager. If your current employer is unwilling to pay you what you think you're worth, you have an obligation to yourself to go into the market and find compensation that matches your expectations. With few exceptions, compensation discussions with your current employer should be mutually exclusive from compensation discussions with other firms. Businessmen don't want to get into bidding wars when they can avoid it.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- halite 11y agoThis is useful advice. I'm in Canada and thinking (and trying!) about moving to states in very near future. honestly it's been challenging dealing with this. Here are few conversations (from what I remember): Amazon Recruiter: So how much are you making right now? Me: I'm in Canada and I'm interviewing for a position in NYC, how's that relevant. In my Province, we've a central database with salary stats. If you've something similar, I can use that to come up with a number backed by data. Amazon Recruiter: I'll get back with that info (he never did!) Generic Recruiter: How much in CAD dollars you make right now? (Me thinking: Do you've any idea about conversion rate? If so, you'd not be asking this) Me: Sorry I can't provide that information. Recruiter: Just so you know when you work with US recruiters, this is a standard requirement that you must provide your current salary for us to be able to proceed. Me: Thanks, I think I'll have to find someone else (and we ended there). Based on news articles it seems it is difficult for tech companies to find good people but it is equally difficult for individuals to weed out these recruiters trickery from my experience. Glad to see that asking for salary is not 'standard' requirement!
- X-Istence 11y agoThe recruiter I went through this time around when I got hired didn't ask me about my previous salary at all. Instead he asked what I was looking for, and ended up giving me a higher number (hourly rate) than what I had asked for.
- halite 11y agoWould you be able to share his / her details?
- totalrobe 11y agoDid this thread get flagged or something? It was just on the homepage and now don't see it.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- patorjk 11y agoThis is a tough one, because you don't want to waste your time on jobs that wont pay you what you're worth, so stating that you make X and need X + .2X is a good way of weeding out the crap. The author does sort of advise this with the notion of giving a salary requirement, but I've had friends who've used this term and companies have ignored it, thinking they are bluffing. Also, I do see how you could short change yourself if their actual budget was higher when you state your salary or salary requirement. I've found the best thing to do is to apply to multiple places and see what kind of offers you get (and then to pit those offers against each other).
- russelluresti 11y agoThe frustrating thing about this is that the entire concept of salary negotiations is one of the prime causes of unequal pay between genders. The entire culture of a company trying to offer you less than you're worth so that they can save a few pennies is disgusting. There shouldn't be salary negotiations - people who do the same job should be paid the same salary. If you want to negotiate for extra vacation days or a signing bonus or whatever, fine, but not salary. Just pay people a fair salary and pay them the same. The current salary negotiation setup is extremely detrimental to people and should be eliminated, not encouraged.