11 ms·

Haskell for Mac

297 points by grayprog 11y ago

eridius 11y ago
Reading this page, it sounds very cool. It also sounds like it's heavily inspired by Swift Playgrounds, including using SpriteKit as an example. I am a bit baffled as to why it says the Haskell code can't initiate network connections. Yeah the app is sandboxed, but sandboxed apps can easily request network access. And it seems like that's a common-enough thing to want that it should support it.
- Tehnix 11y ago
  Yeah, that one stuck to me as well. I don't know if they mean anything specific with "network connections" here, cause I see a lot of apps that talk to the outside world on the MAS.
  - eridius 11y ago
    I think it just means the app didn't request the ability to make network requests. I just don't understand why not.
    - QuantumRoar 11y ago
      Here's a cynical comment: Long term monetization will only work if he can ship version 2 at some point to pull in some more money from the same people who bought version 1 (and the same thing with version 3). The choice of not shipping obvious features of an IDE is in order to have better differentiation between versions. Though, maybe there is really a good reason for that involving some of Apple's policies. I heard they teach the developers all kinds of lessons when it comes to how a program should be made... who knows...
  - oisdk 11y ago
    While you are allowed network-connected apps on the MAS, you have to specify the entitlement. I'd imagine that's something you'd have to justify (or at the very least you'd get more scrutiny and a longer approval time).
- mchakravarty 11y ago
  You can request entitlements, such as network access, but you need to justify them in the App Store review process. Given that Haskell for Mac is pushing the boundaries of what is available on the Mac App Store, I wanted to err on the side of being too conservative for the launch version. I will certainly work towards network support in coming releases.
zer00eyz 11y ago
Can someone who knows more about Haskell explain to me what the hell I'm getting for 25 bucks here? Cant I replicate all of the features it has with off the shelf tools/editors that are free? Wouldn't that path be less limited than this "sandboxed" app with "access other files or to initiate a network connection will be rejected by the operating system" restrictions?
- coldtea 11y ago
  >Cant I replicate all of the features it has with off the shelf tools/editors that are free? You obviously get the convenience of NOT having to replicate all these, and the guaranteed experience of those parts working together as soon as you install it, and with a nice GUI at that.
  - tonylxc 11y ago
    Sounds good but still not convincing. For example, R can do the same thing, too, or even better. And it can be integrated with other programming languages. I would never buy it either until somebody really shows it's worth the money.
    - Tehnix 11y ago
      This has little to do with Haskell as a language, and more to do with this specific tool. Your argument is a little like saying about paying for an editor "For example, VIM can do the same thing, too, or even better...". What you get is a nice looking environment with a built-in playground alá Swift's, that can visualise data, types and even games.
    - interpol_p 11y ago
      It's only $25. I've been interested in playing with Haskell for a while but I've been put off by the need to setup existing tools. Having an all-in-one package with neat presentation, packaged libraries, and immediate feedback sounds like a great deal for $25.
      - 11y ago
trymas 11y ago
I would like to see some demo version, as 20€ is a bit too much to drop. Looks cool, lots of inspiration from swift playgrounds. Though, aren't there any open source alternatives (I have never tried haskell), probably similar to ipython (jupyter) stack?
- Nullabillity 11y ago
  Perhaps IHaskell (https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell) is what you're looking for? It seems to be available on Jupyter's demo website.
  - edraferi 11y ago
    I'm a heavy iPython user and thought iHaskell would be a good way to try out the language on my Mac. Unfortunately I just wound up in Cabal Hell. I spent a few hours tracking down broken dependencies on GitHub before giving up. This project looks exciting because it lets you get started with a working distribution. I'm happy to pay for the privilege of ignoring the mess until the language has proven itself to me.
    - PieSquared 11y ago
      Try installing IHaskell with `stack`. `stack` is fairly new but it's solved all my `cabal` hell related problems. I put IHaskell in Stackage recently so you should just need to install stack, `stack install ihaskell` using a recent Stackage nightly resolver, and then `stack exec -- jupyter notebook` to start. Alternatively just `git clone` and run `stack install` from the resulting directory. If you end up trying it again but still encounter issues please file issues for me on Github so I can help!
- orjan 11y ago
  At https://www.haskell.org/ https://www.haskell.org/, you can try Haskell in the browser. You can also find binary distributions here. Also, this book is supposed to be a good intro to Haskell: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ http://learnyouahaskell.com/
shocks 11y ago
Any plans for Linux support?
- QuantumRoar 11y ago
  Somehow I seriously doubt it. But I keep hoping such things as well :)
  - shocks 11y ago
    I feel the same. I guess I'm mostly just asking so it is known that there is at least some demand for such a product. :)
- srtjstjsj 11y ago
  80% of the app's value is Mac-specific UI patterns. Does Linux have a good port of that? I know there was NextStep/GNUStep, but I don't think it's up-to-date with modern Cocoa nibs.
szastupov 11y ago
Looks amazing, I really want to try it. Maybe a trial version? Because with current exchange rates in Russia, $24.99 is a shitload of rubles :)
- txdv 11y ago
  How much vodka can you buy with 25$?
  - Shengbo 11y ago
    Is this reddit? I left my dank maymays at home.
  - paublyrne 11y ago
    I'm sure didn't mean for your comment to sound like a cultural slur, but it sort of sounds like one.
    - fredo699 11y ago
      Oh, shut up. No one cares. It's not a slur. The man makes a small joke about Vodka? Wow. So racist. He basically wants to kill all Russians.
  - antoni00 11y ago
    ALL
  - orjan 11y ago
    According to [1], half a litre of vodka is ~$2.70. $25 would get you approx. 4.6 litres of vodka. [1]http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-31109471 http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-31109471
    - sgt 11y ago
      Because Russians are only concerned with buying more vodka. How much is a piece of bread or a chicken?
gamache 11y ago
As required by the Mac App Store, Haskell for Mac is sandboxed. Consequently, Haskell code executed in a Haskell for Mac playground cannot access any data except for Haskell for Mac documents, the app container, and those system files white-listed by the operating system. Any attempt to access other files or to initiate a network connection will be rejected by the operating system. This seems unnecessarily crippling. Is this really required of desktop App Store apps?
- zoul 11y ago
  Yes, it’s required. Only some apps are exempt from sandboxing because they existed before sandboxing was introduced. You can also reach out of the sandbox through some user actions, for example opening a file using the system file picker gives you permissions to access this file. Yes, it’s a big constraint. For some apps it’s a show-stopper. As user I mostly welcome it because of the additional protection it gets me.
  - feelix 11y ago
    Apart from that it doesn't get you any additional protection whatsoever. With all the root OS X exploits floating around that bust you out of the sandbox as well as giving you full system access, as someone that has several utilities on the Mac App Store, it would be trivial to put an app there that gets set off by a timer, exploits root, and wreaks havoc. Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=os+x+root+exploit&gws_rd=ssl https://www.google.com/search?q=os+x+root+exploit&gws_rd=ssl
    - marcosscriven 11y ago
      Hence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection
      - super_mario 11y ago
        Which is completely pointless. If a hacker wants to hack your system, the very last thing they want to do is destroy your OS. Who cares about the OS, it's just one re-install away and you got it back. If a hacker were to hack into your system they would want your data, your passwords, your bank account details etc. Or they would want to use your system to do illegal things that look like you did it. It's in the best interest of the hacker that broke into your system that your system continues to work flawlessly for both you and the hacker. This is why Mac OS X "rootless" is just yet another obstacle for the power user, yet another obstacle when compiling and installing POSIX code from source, and yet another step closer to locking down OS X to be an appliance like iOS.
amelius 11y ago
Why do we still have platform-specific applications in 2015? Any good software engineering environment should set an example and show that we do not need to live by such artificial restrictions.
- Tehnix 11y ago
  Because making a cross-platform GUI is quite the pain, unless you jump into web technologies. And even then you still have a lot of obstacles to go through, like SpriteKit is OS X only.
- zoul 11y ago
  Because there’s no environment that would give you native-like experience on multiple platforms without extra work. And developers have limited resources, even in 2015.
  - marcosscriven 11y ago
    Although it is possible to write everything, right up to the view model (but not the view) in something cross platform and performant, keeping the GUI/view using only those languages/frameworks which result in native feel (both in terms of look and performance). Sure, writing the GUI properly for each platform still requires more work, but far far less if all but the front end is cross platform. However, it very rarely seems to be done, even with modern additions and improvements in C++.
    - zoul 11y ago
      I like that approach, but there’s no abundance of such cross-platform stacks either. And then you have to convert parts of the model to fit the views, and sometimes you want to use non-view technologies only available on a certain platform (Keychain, …). While it makes sense and the results are very good, it’s still a very non-trivial work, especially compared to a simple native app.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
carterschonwald 11y ago
This looks like it's by Manuel Chakravarty. He's a long time Haskell contributor / researcher. His research lab is responsible for a huge chunk of array fusion related research that's happened using Haskell over the years. Given the baked in support for sprite kit, I presume that this is an evolution of the tools he used to teach his young ones how to write games.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  I really enjoyed reading about that learning / teaching process as it unfolded. I think the discussion is at the GitHub repository https://github.com/mchakravarty/lets-program https://github.com/mchakravarty/lets-program , though a glance doesn't reveal how up-to-date it is (it refers to 3 coding sessions, then numbers them 1 through 7).
tempodox 11y ago
A programming language implementation that is subject to sandboxing? Mac has become the parody of a computer.
- Tehnix 11y ago
  Everything is subject to sandboxing if it wants to sell through the Mac App Store. He could also just not do that, and have none of those limitations.
- keithy 11y ago
  It's a restriction of the Mac App Store, not the actual Mac computer itself. Mac is just Unix with a pretty UI and lots of features.
  - tempodox 11y ago
    Technically, that's true of course. I myself use the “computer” part only and shun the “AppStore” part as much as at all possible, but Apple is renowned for the deep integration of all kinds of components and there comes a point where you just don't have a choice any more. I seem to see the area of free choice getting smaller with every OS release.
- unfamiliar 11y ago
  There was no need for the developers to release this on the App Store. Anyone installing a Haskell IDE is perfectly capable of installing an app normally.
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    They are charging money for it, so that is reason enough to use the Mac app store. If it was free, then I totally agree.
    - delinka 11y ago
      They can charge for it on their own web site. No requirement to go through MAS to sell Mac software. If people are having a problem with this, complain to the author of the software.
erpellan 11y ago
I bought it. If someone (cough)Jetbrains were to offer a full blown IDE with code-navigation, refactoring tools, smart autocomplete etc etc. I would pay them 10 times as much.
- jporsay 11y ago
  And something such as haskforce[1] wouldn't work for you? [1] http://carymrobbins.github.io/intellij-haskforce/ http://carymrobbins.github.io/intellij-haskforce/
- theCodeStig 11y ago
  Is a full blown IDE (ala IntelliJ) really necessary for Haskell?
  - seanmcdirmid 11y ago
    All that static typing shoud lead to an awesome IDE experience. Given that this hasn't happened, I wonder if there isn't something wrong with Haskell's design that works against it?
    - 314 11y ago
      Atom with the ide-haskell package does a pretty good job.
    - efnx 11y ago
      I think it's just that - the type system gives you so much, most hackers see a text editor with minimal type checking as good enough. Also IDEs tend to be commercial and I don't think any of the big companies see Haskellers as a good chunk of change. There's also quite a stigma many developers carry around regarding Haskell, though I don't understand that.
      - eropple 11y ago
        I don't think there's stigma around Haskell, aside from maybe complexity. I think there often is around Haskell programmers; there's a rep for jerkishness. (Both are commonly attributed to Scala as well, though I think, as a Scala person, the rep for jerkishness is much more earned in Scala-land.)
wyager 11y ago
For something similar that is free (as in beer, but also just a wrapper around free-as-in-speech software), see http://www.kronosnotebook.com/haskell http://www.kronosnotebook.com/haskell
mseri 11y ago
When I've read the title I thought it was about leksah [1]. I've not used it since some time but according to recent reviews is getting quite good. [1]: http://leksah.org http://leksah.org
song 11y ago
I would buy it if it were not sold through the Mac App Store and not sandboxed... There are applications that make sense to sell in the Mac App Store, a programing environment isn't one of them.
spike021 11y ago
Was a bit disappointed when I found out they don't have any education/academic discount beyond education bulk purchasing. Looks pretty cool though.
- grayprog 11y ago
  It's sold through the Mac App Store only right now, so it's limited to what the Mac App Store allows, unfortunately. Maybe in the future, if it goes well, the developer might consider selling outside the Mac App Store, and this have more flexibility. I have no knowledge of his plans on that matte,r though.
  - spike021 11y ago
    Been a while since I looked at App Store policies, but couldn't they charge a discounted price outside the store and then give a promo code to the app?
    - grayprog 11y ago
      I believe that it's not intended to be used like that (promo codes are also limited to 100 per application version now). Also, this would require the developer to find a way to charge people outside of the store. In that case, it's almost half way to setting up a full direct store with a direct version. There is benefit to having a direct version (all our applications do) but many developers today don't want to set this all up. It's quite a lot of work and perhaps the developer is not interesting in spending time on that. Moreover, he might not even be sure if the app is successful enough to invest time into this work.
      - spike021 11y ago
        True, that makes plenty of sense. There would definitely wind up being more overhead in that case. Regardless, I hope things go well for the developers.
- warmfuzzykitten 11y ago
jd3 11y ago
I'm just glad there's a nice binary of GHC available to download from somewhere. I'm running 10.11, and I had to compile GHC from source (homebrew) on my MacBook air in order to install youtube-dl with rtmpdump support. It took literally all night to compile. Hours and hours and hours.
- Tehnix 11y ago
  Didn't https://ghcformacosx.github.io/ https://ghcformacosx.github.io/ work for you? I have no problems on 10.11 with GHC.
- embwbam 11y ago
  Another way to get binaries is to install with stack. See here: http://seanhess.github.io/2015/08/04/practical-haskell-getting-started.html http://seanhess.github.io/2015/08/04/practical-haskell-getti.... At our first Utah Haskell meetup we had around 30 people manage to get GHC and some libraries installed, then complete a tutorial in less than a couple hours.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  I think that the Haskell Platform has binaries for the Mac: https://www.haskell.org/platform/mac.html https://www.haskell.org/platform/mac.html .
vitd 11y ago
This looks really cool! I tried learning Haskell on the Mac a year or two ago. It was painful having to use command-line tools and text editors. I eventually hacked Xcode to do the syntax highlighting and to run the build commands for Haskell. But that breaks every time Xcode updates, etc. This looks like it solves that problem! Can't wait to try it out. One thing I'd like to see is how well it works for calling into the OS, or at least calling into or being called from C/C++/Objective-C (and eventually Swift).
xbshift1 11y ago
I will buy this as soon as it can initiate network connections.
- mchakravarty 11y ago
  That feature will come.
evandrix 11y ago
Paid App to do Haskell? pfft.
JadeNB 11y ago
I imagine that this is a naïve question, but it's sincere: what does this app offer for its $20 cost that the Haskell platform doesn't? Of their five big selling points, three don't seem really convincing: it mentions that it includes 200 libraries—more than HP, but not the sort of thing one needs to pay for; there is SpriteKit support, of which they say: > We will release the SpriteKit binding under a permissive open source license for general use as soon as possible. ; and "Let the type system help you", which, of course, is just a feature of Haskell, not of this environment. A drag'n'drop project manager is nice, but doesn't seem like that big a deal; so I guess that the real selling point is the "Immediate feedback". Indeed, that seems to be a huge selling point, and it's something for which I've often wished while coding Haskell. However, their blurb on it is very brief: > Haskell playgrounds provide instant feedback, displaying types and results of computations, both textual and graphical. Is there any way to read more about this, and, in particular, to evaluate how much value it adds before buying?
- ics 11y ago
  Quoting /u/kamatsu (from reddit): "Some context. This is a very early version released by /u/chak in time for ICFP. There are lots more features planned, so don't view this as the final product." Comparing it to HP doesn't really make sense; it's a very early stage IDE with some yet-unreleased libraries and Xcode-like features/interaction (see Playgrounds) by a known GHC/Haskell developer.
  - JadeNB 11y ago
    > Comparing it to HP doesn't really make sense Indeed, I should have made it clear that I was looking for an appropriate comparison, not meaning to suggest that HP (which was just the first thing that came to mind) was an appropriate comparison. Thanks for the insight!
- oisdk 11y ago
  The blog link on the website fleshes out the thinking a little further: http://blog.haskellformac.com/blog/from-the-read-eval-print-loop-to-playgrounds http://blog.haskellformac.com/blog/from-the-read-eval-print-... The author also had a blog post on it here: http://justtesting.org/post/103422773731/why-are-playgrounds-compelling http://justtesting.org/post/103422773731/why-are-playgrounds...

297 points by grayprog 11y ago

Reading this page, it sounds very cool. It also sounds like it's heavily inspired by Swift Playgrounds, including using SpriteKit as an example. I am a bit baffled as to why it says the Haskell code can't initiate network connections. Yeah the app is sandboxed, but sandboxed apps can easily request network access. And it seems like that's a common-enough thing to want that it should support it.

Tehnix 11y ago
Yeah, that one stuck to me as well. I don't know if they mean anything specific with "network connections" here, cause I see a lot of apps that talk to the outside world on the MAS.
- eridius 11y ago
  I think it just means the app didn't request the ability to make network requests. I just don't understand why not.
  - QuantumRoar 11y ago
    Here's a cynical comment: Long term monetization will only work if he can ship version 2 at some point to pull in some more money from the same people who bought version 1 (and the same thing with version 3). The choice of not shipping obvious features of an IDE is in order to have better differentiation between versions. Though, maybe there is really a good reason for that involving some of Apple's policies. I heard they teach the developers all kinds of lessons when it comes to how a program should be made... who knows...
- oisdk 11y ago
  While you are allowed network-connected apps on the MAS, you have to specify the entitlement. I'd imagine that's something you'd have to justify (or at the very least you'd get more scrutiny and a longer approval time).
mchakravarty 11y ago
You can request entitlements, such as network access, but you need to justify them in the App Store review process. Given that Haskell for Mac is pushing the boundaries of what is available on the Mac App Store, I wanted to err on the side of being too conservative for the launch version. I will certainly work towards network support in coming releases.

zer00eyz 11y ago

Can someone who knows more about Haskell explain to me what the hell I'm getting for 25 bucks here? Cant I replicate all of the features it has with off the shelf tools/editors that are free? Wouldn't that path be less limited than this "sandboxed" app with "access other files or to initiate a network connection will be rejected by the operating system" restrictions?

coldtea 11y ago
>Cant I replicate all of the features it has with off the shelf tools/editors that are free? You obviously get the convenience of NOT having to replicate all these, and the guaranteed experience of those parts working together as soon as you install it, and with a nice GUI at that.
- tonylxc 11y ago
  Sounds good but still not convincing. For example, R can do the same thing, too, or even better. And it can be integrated with other programming languages. I would never buy it either until somebody really shows it's worth the money.
  - Tehnix 11y ago
    This has little to do with Haskell as a language, and more to do with this specific tool. Your argument is a little like saying about paying for an editor "For example, VIM can do the same thing, too, or even better...". What you get is a nice looking environment with a built-in playground alá Swift's, that can visualise data, types and even games.
  - interpol_p 11y ago
    It's only $25. I've been interested in playing with Haskell for a while but I've been put off by the need to setup existing tools. Having an all-in-one package with neat presentation, packaged libraries, and immediate feedback sounds like a great deal for $25.
    - 11y ago

trymas 11y ago

I would like to see some demo version, as 20€ is a bit too much to drop. Looks cool, lots of inspiration from swift playgrounds. Though, aren't there any open source alternatives (I have never tried haskell), probably similar to ipython (jupyter) stack?

Nullabillity 11y ago
Perhaps IHaskell (https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell https://github.com/gibiansky/IHaskell) is what you're looking for? It seems to be available on Jupyter's demo website.
- edraferi 11y ago
  I'm a heavy iPython user and thought iHaskell would be a good way to try out the language on my Mac. Unfortunately I just wound up in Cabal Hell. I spent a few hours tracking down broken dependencies on GitHub before giving up. This project looks exciting because it lets you get started with a working distribution. I'm happy to pay for the privilege of ignoring the mess until the language has proven itself to me.
  - PieSquared 11y ago
    Try installing IHaskell with `stack`. `stack` is fairly new but it's solved all my `cabal` hell related problems. I put IHaskell in Stackage recently so you should just need to install stack, `stack install ihaskell` using a recent Stackage nightly resolver, and then `stack exec -- jupyter notebook` to start. Alternatively just `git clone` and run `stack install` from the resulting directory. If you end up trying it again but still encounter issues please file issues for me on Github so I can help!
orjan 11y ago
At https://www.haskell.org/ https://www.haskell.org/, you can try Haskell in the browser. You can also find binary distributions here. Also, this book is supposed to be a good intro to Haskell: http://learnyouahaskell.com/ http://learnyouahaskell.com/

shocks 11y ago

Any plans for Linux support?

QuantumRoar 11y ago
Somehow I seriously doubt it. But I keep hoping such things as well :)
- shocks 11y ago
  I feel the same. I guess I'm mostly just asking so it is known that there is at least some demand for such a product. :)
srtjstjsj 11y ago
80% of the app's value is Mac-specific UI patterns. Does Linux have a good port of that? I know there was NextStep/GNUStep, but I don't think it's up-to-date with modern Cocoa nibs.

szastupov 11y ago

Looks amazing, I really want to try it. Maybe a trial version? Because with current exchange rates in Russia, $24.99 is a shitload of rubles :)

txdv 11y ago
How much vodka can you buy with 25$?
- Shengbo 11y ago
  Is this reddit? I left my dank maymays at home.
- paublyrne 11y ago
  I'm sure didn't mean for your comment to sound like a cultural slur, but it sort of sounds like one.
  - fredo699 11y ago
    Oh, shut up. No one cares. It's not a slur. The man makes a small joke about Vodka? Wow. So racist. He basically wants to kill all Russians.
- antoni00 11y ago
  ALL
- orjan 11y ago
  According to [1], half a litre of vodka is ~$2.70. $25 would get you approx. 4.6 litres of vodka. [1]http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-31109471 http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-31109471
  - sgt 11y ago
    Because Russians are only concerned with buying more vodka. How much is a piece of bread or a chicken?

gamache 11y ago

As required by the Mac App Store, Haskell for Mac is sandboxed. Consequently, Haskell code executed in a Haskell for Mac playground cannot access any data except for Haskell for Mac documents, the app container, and those system files white-listed by the operating system. Any attempt to access other files or to initiate a network connection will be rejected by the operating system. This seems unnecessarily crippling. Is this really required of desktop App Store apps?

zoul 11y ago
Yes, it’s required. Only some apps are exempt from sandboxing because they existed before sandboxing was introduced. You can also reach out of the sandbox through some user actions, for example opening a file using the system file picker gives you permissions to access this file. Yes, it’s a big constraint. For some apps it’s a show-stopper. As user I mostly welcome it because of the additional protection it gets me.
- feelix 11y ago
  Apart from that it doesn't get you any additional protection whatsoever. With all the root OS X exploits floating around that bust you out of the sandbox as well as giving you full system access, as someone that has several utilities on the Mac App Store, it would be trivial to put an app there that gets set off by a timer, exploits root, and wreaks havoc. Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=os+x+root+exploit&gws_rd=ssl https://www.google.com/search?q=os+x+root+exploit&gws_rd=ssl
  - marcosscriven 11y ago
    Hence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Integrity_Protection
    - super_mario 11y ago
      Which is completely pointless. If a hacker wants to hack your system, the very last thing they want to do is destroy your OS. Who cares about the OS, it's just one re-install away and you got it back. If a hacker were to hack into your system they would want your data, your passwords, your bank account details etc. Or they would want to use your system to do illegal things that look like you did it. It's in the best interest of the hacker that broke into your system that your system continues to work flawlessly for both you and the hacker. This is why Mac OS X "rootless" is just yet another obstacle for the power user, yet another obstacle when compiling and installing POSIX code from source, and yet another step closer to locking down OS X to be an appliance like iOS.

amelius 11y ago

Why do we still have platform-specific applications in 2015? Any good software engineering environment should set an example and show that we do not need to live by such artificial restrictions.

Tehnix 11y ago
Because making a cross-platform GUI is quite the pain, unless you jump into web technologies. And even then you still have a lot of obstacles to go through, like SpriteKit is OS X only.
zoul 11y ago
Because there’s no environment that would give you native-like experience on multiple platforms without extra work. And developers have limited resources, even in 2015.
- marcosscriven 11y ago
  Although it is possible to write everything, right up to the view model (but not the view) in something cross platform and performant, keeping the GUI/view using only those languages/frameworks which result in native feel (both in terms of look and performance). Sure, writing the GUI properly for each platform still requires more work, but far far less if all but the front end is cross platform. However, it very rarely seems to be done, even with modern additions and improvements in C++.
  - zoul 11y ago
    I like that approach, but there’s no abundance of such cross-platform stacks either. And then you have to convert parts of the model to fit the views, and sometimes you want to use non-view technologies only available on a certain platform (Keychain, …). While it makes sense and the results are very good, it’s still a very non-trivial work, especially compared to a simple native app.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

carterschonwald 11y ago

This looks like it's by Manuel Chakravarty. He's a long time Haskell contributor / researcher. His research lab is responsible for a huge chunk of array fusion related research that's happened using Haskell over the years. Given the baked in support for sprite kit, I presume that this is an evolution of the tools he used to teach his young ones how to write games.

JadeNB 11y ago
I really enjoyed reading about that learning / teaching process as it unfolded. I think the discussion is at the GitHub repository https://github.com/mchakravarty/lets-program https://github.com/mchakravarty/lets-program , though a glance doesn't reveal how up-to-date it is (it refers to 3 coding sessions, then numbers them 1 through 7).

tempodox 11y ago

A programming language implementation that is subject to sandboxing? Mac has become the parody of a computer.

Tehnix 11y ago
Everything is subject to sandboxing if it wants to sell through the Mac App Store. He could also just not do that, and have none of those limitations.
keithy 11y ago
It's a restriction of the Mac App Store, not the actual Mac computer itself. Mac is just Unix with a pretty UI and lots of features.
- tempodox 11y ago
  Technically, that's true of course. I myself use the “computer” part only and shun the “AppStore” part as much as at all possible, but Apple is renowned for the deep integration of all kinds of components and there comes a point where you just don't have a choice any more. I seem to see the area of free choice getting smaller with every OS release.
unfamiliar 11y ago
There was no need for the developers to release this on the App Store. Anyone installing a Haskell IDE is perfectly capable of installing an app normally.
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  They are charging money for it, so that is reason enough to use the Mac app store. If it was free, then I totally agree.
  - delinka 11y ago
    They can charge for it on their own web site. No requirement to go through MAS to sell Mac software. If people are having a problem with this, complain to the author of the software.

erpellan 11y ago

I bought it. If someone (cough)Jetbrains were to offer a full blown IDE with code-navigation, refactoring tools, smart autocomplete etc etc. I would pay them 10 times as much.

jporsay 11y ago
And something such as haskforce[1] wouldn't work for you? [1] http://carymrobbins.github.io/intellij-haskforce/ http://carymrobbins.github.io/intellij-haskforce/
theCodeStig 11y ago
Is a full blown IDE (ala IntelliJ) really necessary for Haskell?
- seanmcdirmid 11y ago
  All that static typing shoud lead to an awesome IDE experience. Given that this hasn't happened, I wonder if there isn't something wrong with Haskell's design that works against it?
  - 314 11y ago
    Atom with the ide-haskell package does a pretty good job.
  - efnx 11y ago
    I think it's just that - the type system gives you so much, most hackers see a text editor with minimal type checking as good enough. Also IDEs tend to be commercial and I don't think any of the big companies see Haskellers as a good chunk of change. There's also quite a stigma many developers carry around regarding Haskell, though I don't understand that.
    - eropple 11y ago
      I don't think there's stigma around Haskell, aside from maybe complexity. I think there often is around Haskell programmers; there's a rep for jerkishness. (Both are commonly attributed to Scala as well, though I think, as a Scala person, the rep for jerkishness is much more earned in Scala-land.)

wyager 11y ago

For something similar that is free (as in beer, but also just a wrapper around free-as-in-speech software), see http://www.kronosnotebook.com/haskell http://www.kronosnotebook.com/haskell

mseri 11y ago

When I've read the title I thought it was about leksah [1]. I've not used it since some time but according to recent reviews is getting quite good. [1]: http://leksah.org http://leksah.org

song 11y ago

I would buy it if it were not sold through the Mac App Store and not sandboxed... There are applications that make sense to sell in the Mac App Store, a programing environment isn't one of them.

spike021 11y ago

Was a bit disappointed when I found out they don't have any education/academic discount beyond education bulk purchasing. Looks pretty cool though.

grayprog 11y ago
It's sold through the Mac App Store only right now, so it's limited to what the Mac App Store allows, unfortunately. Maybe in the future, if it goes well, the developer might consider selling outside the Mac App Store, and this have more flexibility. I have no knowledge of his plans on that matte,r though.
- spike021 11y ago
  Been a while since I looked at App Store policies, but couldn't they charge a discounted price outside the store and then give a promo code to the app?
  - grayprog 11y ago
    I believe that it's not intended to be used like that (promo codes are also limited to 100 per application version now). Also, this would require the developer to find a way to charge people outside of the store. In that case, it's almost half way to setting up a full direct store with a direct version. There is benefit to having a direct version (all our applications do) but many developers today don't want to set this all up. It's quite a lot of work and perhaps the developer is not interesting in spending time on that. Moreover, he might not even be sure if the app is successful enough to invest time into this work.
    - spike021 11y ago
      True, that makes plenty of sense. There would definitely wind up being more overhead in that case. Regardless, I hope things go well for the developers.
warmfuzzykitten 11y ago

jd3 11y ago

I'm just glad there's a nice binary of GHC available to download from somewhere. I'm running 10.11, and I had to compile GHC from source (homebrew) on my MacBook air in order to install youtube-dl with rtmpdump support. It took literally all night to compile. Hours and hours and hours.

Tehnix 11y ago
Didn't https://ghcformacosx.github.io/ https://ghcformacosx.github.io/ work for you? I have no problems on 10.11 with GHC.
embwbam 11y ago
Another way to get binaries is to install with stack. See here: http://seanhess.github.io/2015/08/04/practical-haskell-getting-started.html http://seanhess.github.io/2015/08/04/practical-haskell-getti.... At our first Utah Haskell meetup we had around 30 people manage to get GHC and some libraries installed, then complete a tutorial in less than a couple hours.
JadeNB 11y ago
I think that the Haskell Platform has binaries for the Mac: https://www.haskell.org/platform/mac.html https://www.haskell.org/platform/mac.html .

vitd 11y ago

This looks really cool! I tried learning Haskell on the Mac a year or two ago. It was painful having to use command-line tools and text editors. I eventually hacked Xcode to do the syntax highlighting and to run the build commands for Haskell. But that breaks every time Xcode updates, etc. This looks like it solves that problem! Can't wait to try it out. One thing I'd like to see is how well it works for calling into the OS, or at least calling into or being called from C/C++/Objective-C (and eventually Swift).

xbshift1 11y ago

I will buy this as soon as it can initiate network connections.

mchakravarty 11y ago
That feature will come.

evandrix 11y ago

Paid App to do Haskell? pfft.

JadeNB 11y ago

I imagine that this is a naïve question, but it's sincere: what does this app offer for its $20 cost that the Haskell platform doesn't? Of their five big selling points, three don't seem really convincing: it mentions that it includes 200 libraries—more than HP, but not the sort of thing one needs to pay for; there is SpriteKit support, of which they say: > We will release the SpriteKit binding under a permissive open source license for general use as soon as possible. ; and "Let the type system help you", which, of course, is just a feature of Haskell, not of this environment. A drag'n'drop project manager is nice, but doesn't seem like that big a deal; so I guess that the real selling point is the "Immediate feedback". Indeed, that seems to be a huge selling point, and it's something for which I've often wished while coding Haskell. However, their blurb on it is very brief: > Haskell playgrounds provide instant feedback, displaying types and results of computations, both textual and graphical. Is there any way to read more about this, and, in particular, to evaluate how much value it adds before buying?

ics 11y ago
Quoting /u/kamatsu (from reddit): "Some context. This is a very early version released by /u/chak in time for ICFP. There are lots more features planned, so don't view this as the final product." Comparing it to HP doesn't really make sense; it's a very early stage IDE with some yet-unreleased libraries and Xcode-like features/interaction (see Playgrounds) by a known GHC/Haskell developer.
- JadeNB 11y ago
  > Comparing it to HP doesn't really make sense Indeed, I should have made it clear that I was looking for an appropriate comparison, not meaning to suggest that HP (which was just the first thing that came to mind) was an appropriate comparison. Thanks for the insight!
oisdk 11y ago
The blog link on the website fleshes out the thinking a little further: http://blog.haskellformac.com/blog/from-the-read-eval-print-loop-to-playgrounds http://blog.haskellformac.com/blog/from-the-read-eval-print-... The author also had a blog post on it here: http://justtesting.org/post/103422773731/why-are-playgrounds-compelling http://justtesting.org/post/103422773731/why-are-playgrounds...