5 ms·

Loved the whole bit on Netscape. "We are not going to make any money by selling browsers, and I personally don’t think they are going to make any money from it

Loved the whole bit on Netscape. "We are not going to make any money by selling browsers, and I personally don’t think they are going to make any money from it either. If you can get a browser from Microsoft for free, why are you going to pay $39 to Netscape?"

drzaiusapelord 11y ago
Its crazy that even today diehards defend the DOJ's insane war on MS in the 90s. Do you guys really want to pay for browsers or every single thing in a OS ala carte? MS was in the right here (the browser is just part of the OS) and the judgement just empowered OEMs to go apeshit with crapware and bundling, helping make the MS experience a lot crappier than it should be.
- Shivetya 11y ago
  people want to ala carte their entertainment even today and many will do it even it cost them more.
  - gress 11y ago
    Very few people.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    So they want to buy a DVR, pay for a DVR OS, pay for a DVR browser, pay for a DVR movie store, and then finally pay for a movie to rent on the DVR?
- digi_owl 11y ago
  Trick is that it was not a war on browsers, it was a war on servers. In particular, intraservers. Netscape, as best i can tell, pretty much seeded the idea of using web tech on the office network. And this was a direct threat to the market share of MS on that network. Thus MS rolled out IIS and IE, with the latter working closely with the former (as was the case between Netscape Navigator and Enterprise server). So in the end the "browser war" was a proxy war for the office network.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  That's not the way I remember it.
- nolok 11y ago
  Your starting point is wrong there: the DOJ wasn't against them for making it free, but for bundling it with their OS. They could offer it for free all they want. Similar in the EU, they weren't against them for it being free, and once they stopped bundling it and windows media player, they were off the hook (even though they still offered them for free).
  - adventured 11y ago
    The browser was ultimately mid-level on the list of grievances the DOJ had with Microsoft. That's why MS can bundle IE and Edge with the operating system today and nobody cares, including the US government. If all Microsoft had done is bundled a free browser with the OS, it would have never stood up in court in terms of anti-trust prosecution. It would have been a laughable case. What the DOJ got them on, was restraint of trade issues with OEMs, restrictions on API access, deep integration of IE into the OS (lying about being able to remove it), and market place conduct through leveraging their monopoly, leading to (in the DOJ's opinion) harm to consumers. Microsoft also basically taunted the bull in the countless ways they tried to jam the government, the ways they acted like assholes at every turn (including to the judge), the quotes that came out on things they said about competition, etc. They ended up with nearly everyone against them and looked like the ultimate bullies. If you want to have a bad time, be a monopoly and pretend you're more powerful than the US Government, and pretend you can stone-wall them.
    - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
      >That's why MS can bundle IE and Edge with the operating system today and nobody cares, including the US government. No, the only reason MS is suddenly bundling more, including Anti-Virus, is because the judgement expired in 2011. >If you want to have a bad time, be a monopoly and pretend you're more powerful than the US Government, Or from a realpolitik stance, if Netscape has more friends with the Clintons than you do (which they did), you're going to have a bad time. A lot of "careers" were made at the DoJ over this asinine case, that changed nothing for the better.
      - 11y ago
- jamespo 11y ago
  MS got up to a lot more than just bundling browsers
  - MCRed 11y ago
    For instance, around the time this article was written, someone from Microsoft was sitting across the desk from me (this is in Seattle) and told me "you can re-engineer our product to use our technology, or we will bury you". Re-engineering would have made us microsoft windows only, and dependent on them for everything... and we would have lost all our value because it doesn't make any sense technically (the guy didn't understand what we did.) Well, it's now been almost 20 years, and Microsoft has still never released what they claimed they were going to release and have us build on top of them. So yeah, I have no love lost for Microsoft. Yet they're still not as evil as Google.
    - mercer 11y ago
      Could you elaborate more on what makes Google more evil in your opinion (honest question)?
- pjc50 11y ago
  People I think defend it in the same way as prosecuting Al Capone for tax evasion: we'll take what we can get. In the context of things like the "Halloween memos", funding the SCO controversy, and various other bits of anti-interoperability work people were just grateful for an impairment of the platform monopolist. Nowadays Apple has a policy of banning all other web browsers and even program interpreters from its platform. This isn't really acceptable either, but there doesn't seem to be any prospect of doing anything about it.
  - alextgordon 11y ago
    Apple doesn't ban web browsers, they couldn't give a rat's arse about that. They ban PROT_EXEC. Apple's position is essentially that iOS already has a perfectly good JavaScript engine (JavaScriptCore) and the security risks of allowing apps to use mprotect/mmap far outweigh the benefits of allowing other JS engines.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  > Its crazy that even today diehards defend the DOJ's insane war on MS in the 90s. Its crazy that even today, diehards continue to misrepresent the DOJ prosecution of MS in the 1990s. > Do you guys really want to pay for browsers or every single thing in a OS ala carte? The basis for the DOJ prosecution of MS wasn't that it was illegal in general to include a browser or similar application as an included feature of an OS, it was that it was illegal for a market participant with monopoly power in a particular market to leverage that monopoly power in an effort to monopolize an existing distinct market.
bluedino 11y ago
I love the next question just as much The Herring: But if Navigator is platform-independent, and… Jobs: But everybody uses Windows. Come on – 90%+ of the people use Windows, so 90%+ of the people are going to hook into the Internet using Microsoft. Now, you know me, I love the Mac too, but I am trying to be really objective here.

drzaiusapelord 11y ago

Its crazy that even today diehards defend the DOJ's insane war on MS in the 90s. Do you guys really want to pay for browsers or every single thing in a OS ala carte? MS was in the right here (the browser is just part of the OS) and the judgement just empowered OEMs to go apeshit with crapware and bundling, helping make the MS experience a lot crappier than it should be.

Shivetya 11y ago
people want to ala carte their entertainment even today and many will do it even it cost them more.
- gress 11y ago
  Very few people.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  So they want to buy a DVR, pay for a DVR OS, pay for a DVR browser, pay for a DVR movie store, and then finally pay for a movie to rent on the DVR?
digi_owl 11y ago
Trick is that it was not a war on browsers, it was a war on servers. In particular, intraservers. Netscape, as best i can tell, pretty much seeded the idea of using web tech on the office network. And this was a direct threat to the market share of MS on that network. Thus MS rolled out IIS and IE, with the latter working closely with the former (as was the case between Netscape Navigator and Enterprise server). So in the end the "browser war" was a proxy war for the office network.
GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
That's not the way I remember it.
nolok 11y ago
Your starting point is wrong there: the DOJ wasn't against them for making it free, but for bundling it with their OS. They could offer it for free all they want. Similar in the EU, they weren't against them for it being free, and once they stopped bundling it and windows media player, they were off the hook (even though they still offered them for free).
- adventured 11y ago
  The browser was ultimately mid-level on the list of grievances the DOJ had with Microsoft. That's why MS can bundle IE and Edge with the operating system today and nobody cares, including the US government. If all Microsoft had done is bundled a free browser with the OS, it would have never stood up in court in terms of anti-trust prosecution. It would have been a laughable case. What the DOJ got them on, was restraint of trade issues with OEMs, restrictions on API access, deep integration of IE into the OS (lying about being able to remove it), and market place conduct through leveraging their monopoly, leading to (in the DOJ's opinion) harm to consumers. Microsoft also basically taunted the bull in the countless ways they tried to jam the government, the ways they acted like assholes at every turn (including to the judge), the quotes that came out on things they said about competition, etc. They ended up with nearly everyone against them and looked like the ultimate bullies. If you want to have a bad time, be a monopoly and pretend you're more powerful than the US Government, and pretend you can stone-wall them.
  - drzaiusapelord 11y ago
    >That's why MS can bundle IE and Edge with the operating system today and nobody cares, including the US government. No, the only reason MS is suddenly bundling more, including Anti-Virus, is because the judgement expired in 2011. >If you want to have a bad time, be a monopoly and pretend you're more powerful than the US Government, Or from a realpolitik stance, if Netscape has more friends with the Clintons than you do (which they did), you're going to have a bad time. A lot of "careers" were made at the DoJ over this asinine case, that changed nothing for the better.
    - 11y ago
jamespo 11y ago
MS got up to a lot more than just bundling browsers
- MCRed 11y ago
  For instance, around the time this article was written, someone from Microsoft was sitting across the desk from me (this is in Seattle) and told me "you can re-engineer our product to use our technology, or we will bury you". Re-engineering would have made us microsoft windows only, and dependent on them for everything... and we would have lost all our value because it doesn't make any sense technically (the guy didn't understand what we did.) Well, it's now been almost 20 years, and Microsoft has still never released what they claimed they were going to release and have us build on top of them. So yeah, I have no love lost for Microsoft. Yet they're still not as evil as Google.
  - mercer 11y ago
    Could you elaborate more on what makes Google more evil in your opinion (honest question)?
pjc50 11y ago
People I think defend it in the same way as prosecuting Al Capone for tax evasion: we'll take what we can get. In the context of things like the "Halloween memos", funding the SCO controversy, and various other bits of anti-interoperability work people were just grateful for an impairment of the platform monopolist. Nowadays Apple has a policy of banning all other web browsers and even program interpreters from its platform. This isn't really acceptable either, but there doesn't seem to be any prospect of doing anything about it.
- alextgordon 11y ago
  Apple doesn't ban web browsers, they couldn't give a rat's arse about that. They ban PROT_EXEC. Apple's position is essentially that iOS already has a perfectly good JavaScript engine (JavaScriptCore) and the security risks of allowing apps to use mprotect/mmap far outweigh the benefits of allowing other JS engines.
dragonwriter 11y ago
> Its crazy that even today diehards defend the DOJ's insane war on MS in the 90s. Its crazy that even today, diehards continue to misrepresent the DOJ prosecution of MS in the 1990s. > Do you guys really want to pay for browsers or every single thing in a OS ala carte? The basis for the DOJ prosecution of MS wasn't that it was illegal in general to include a browser or similar application as an included feature of an OS, it was that it was illegal for a market participant with monopoly power in a particular market to leverage that monopoly power in an effort to monopolize an existing distinct market.

bluedino 11y ago

I love the next question just as much The Herring: But if Navigator is platform-independent, and… Jobs: But everybody uses Windows. Come on – 90%+ of the people use Windows, so 90%+ of the people are going to hook into the Internet using Microsoft. Now, you know me, I love the Mac too, but I am trying to be really objective here.