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> Correction: You know nothing about poverty in the United States. I guess America is special then. > The discrete right/privilege distinction is a meaningles

by catzaa 17y ago

> Correction: You know nothing about poverty in the United States. I guess America is special then. > The discrete right/privilege distinction is a meaningless distraction from the more subjective issue of social justice. The word “social justice” is a misnomer for a list of entitlements and an enforcement of equality of outcome. > If the resources exist to give everyone healthcare, then everyone should have healthcare. The only problem you face is that these “resources” belong to private individuals. So you only have to coerce these “resources” away from them and somehow force them to keep working and creating these resources. One guy once said what you are trying to implement: “From each according to his ability and to each according to his need”. Was it Marx? > spending trillions on "defense"; why not spend money to be defended against things like cancer, which are far more likely to kill most of us than any terrorist? You are justifying one bad idea with another bad idea. This is a stupid line of reasoning. For a government with an incredibly large amount of debt, it is not a good idea to spend trillions on anything. > > It looks like everyone wants free healthcare and no-one wants to pay for it. > Ridiculous assertion. No one with half a brain considers that possible. Someone has to pay. Yes. And the answer is always, “not us”. The argument is usually that “rich people” will pay for it. > > It seems that the list of entitlements only gets longer and the list of responsibilities gets shorter. > That's what happens as society improves. Now, that is when society declines and decays. > On the list of responsibilities shrinking: are you arguing that we should go back to an era when people spent a substantial fraction of their time making their own clothes, instead of buying cheap factory-made clothing at the store? This has nothing to do with government entitlements or personal responsibilities and duties. Here are some example responsibilities and duties: - Save for your retirement (don’t push this duty on the government). - Save to send your children to school and hopefully university. - Raise your children well. - Volunteer to become an army reservist, police reservist or any other civic duty. - Take care of your parents when they are old. Etc… Here are some entitlements: - Free healthcare - Free welfare payments - Cash payments for each child born. - Free education and university - Gauranteed salary throughout your life (whether employed or not). Some countries call this a "basic income grant".

pwnstigator 17y ago
I guess America is special then. My point is that you have no idea what it's like for those who are poor in the US. To claim that they have abundant opportunity is ludicrous. I know this society inside and out, I've got friends at all social levels-- from dirt-poor to three-digit millionaires-- and I know that you're impossibly naive. The word “social justice” is a misnomer for a list of entitlements and an enforcement of equality of outcome. Wrong. Equality of outcome is an impossible goal, and would be undesirable even if it could be achieved. More desirable is a world in which people have the ability to maximize their contributions to society, because they're given the resources necessary to realize their potential. I don't think everyone deserves to have a big screen TV or a new car, but I do think everyone should have a chance to make something of him- or herself. Yes. And the answer is always, “not us”. The argument is usually that “rich people” will pay for it. Everyone pays taxes. Rich people pay more. I have no problem with this. They get more out of society; why shouldn't they put more back into it? Here are some entitlements: - Free healthcare - Free welfare payments - Cash payments for each child born. - Free education and university - Gauranteed salary throughout your life (whether employed or not). Some countries call this a "basic income grant". The only one of those that's been demonstrated to be a bad idea is the cash payment for having children (which encourages people to have kids they can't support). Nice flame-bait, but weak on the logical argument.
- catzaa 17y ago
  > My point is that you have no idea what it's like for those who are poor in the US. To claim that they have abundant opportunity is ludicrous. I know this society inside and out, I've got friends at all social levels-- from dirt-poor to three-digit millionaires-- and I know that you're impossibly naive. I think you are being deliberately deceptive. I have friends that went to work in the USA. One worked for a harvesting company and received a good salary. Another did long distance trucking. All of these are “low paying” jobs, yet in the USA they receive excellent salaries. Many people in low paying jobs (such as plumbers) can own their own home – which is unheard of in many countries. The salary for manual labour is incredibly high. > More desirable is a world in which people have the ability to maximize their contributions to society, because they're given the resources necessary to realize their potential. You view someone earning money as a “gift from society”. If someone works or has a business, he owns his own money with no obligation to any other party. A lot of people on the left wants to view individuals as servants of society (as you do). > Everyone pays taxes. Rich people pay more. I have no problem with this. You do not have a problem with this, because you do not fall in the top tax bracket. That is the “not me” phenomenon in action. > They get more out of society; Again, you view any money an individual makes as a gift from society. This is not so. For a voluntary transaction (where there is no coercion) no one owes a third party anything. > The only one of those that's been demonstrated to be a bad idea is the cash payment for having children (which encourages people to have kids they can't support). Free universities tend to be of much worse quality. Two good examples are Germany and Greece. The qualities of Universities in these countries are much lower than countries such as the United States. Greece has the highest number of foreign students studying abroad for its population size. The Basic Income Grant causes a lot of people to work and places an incredibly high burden on tax payers. In my country they want to introduce the basic income grant. Currently there are 13 million people on welfare (child grants which stretches until a child is 16, unemployment,) while there are only 3 million tax payers (i.e. four people getting grants for every one person on tax). BIG will push it to ten people receiving grants for every one person paying tax.

by catzaa 17y ago

pwnstigator 17y ago

I guess America is special then. My point is that you have no idea what it's like for those who are poor in the US. To claim that they have abundant opportunity is ludicrous. I know this society inside and out, I've got friends at all social levels-- from dirt-poor to three-digit millionaires-- and I know that you're impossibly naive. The word “social justice” is a misnomer for a list of entitlements and an enforcement of equality of outcome. Wrong. Equality of outcome is an impossible goal, and would be undesirable even if it could be achieved. More desirable is a world in which people have the ability to maximize their contributions to society, because they're given the resources necessary to realize their potential. I don't think everyone deserves to have a big screen TV or a new car, but I do think everyone should have a chance to make something of him- or herself. Yes. And the answer is always, “not us”. The argument is usually that “rich people” will pay for it. Everyone pays taxes. Rich people pay more. I have no problem with this. They get more out of society; why shouldn't they put more back into it? Here are some entitlements: - Free healthcare - Free welfare payments - Cash payments for each child born. - Free education and university - Gauranteed salary throughout your life (whether employed or not). Some countries call this a "basic income grant". The only one of those that's been demonstrated to be a bad idea is the cash payment for having children (which encourages people to have kids they can't support). Nice flame-bait, but weak on the logical argument.

catzaa 17y ago
> My point is that you have no idea what it's like for those who are poor in the US. To claim that they have abundant opportunity is ludicrous. I know this society inside and out, I've got friends at all social levels-- from dirt-poor to three-digit millionaires-- and I know that you're impossibly naive. I think you are being deliberately deceptive. I have friends that went to work in the USA. One worked for a harvesting company and received a good salary. Another did long distance trucking. All of these are “low paying” jobs, yet in the USA they receive excellent salaries. Many people in low paying jobs (such as plumbers) can own their own home – which is unheard of in many countries. The salary for manual labour is incredibly high. > More desirable is a world in which people have the ability to maximize their contributions to society, because they're given the resources necessary to realize their potential. You view someone earning money as a “gift from society”. If someone works or has a business, he owns his own money with no obligation to any other party. A lot of people on the left wants to view individuals as servants of society (as you do). > Everyone pays taxes. Rich people pay more. I have no problem with this. You do not have a problem with this, because you do not fall in the top tax bracket. That is the “not me” phenomenon in action. > They get more out of society; Again, you view any money an individual makes as a gift from society. This is not so. For a voluntary transaction (where there is no coercion) no one owes a third party anything. > The only one of those that's been demonstrated to be a bad idea is the cash payment for having children (which encourages people to have kids they can't support). Free universities tend to be of much worse quality. Two good examples are Germany and Greece. The qualities of Universities in these countries are much lower than countries such as the United States. Greece has the highest number of foreign students studying abroad for its population size. The Basic Income Grant causes a lot of people to work and places an incredibly high burden on tax payers. In my country they want to introduce the basic income grant. Currently there are 13 million people on welfare (child grants which stretches until a child is 16, unemployment,) while there are only 3 million tax payers (i.e. four people getting grants for every one person on tax). BIG will push it to ten people receiving grants for every one person paying tax.