6 ms·

I don't know anyone who is 'addicted'. I know people who put in 14 hour days because they genuinely just enjoy it. I'm one of them. You always have to try and

I don't know anyone who is 'addicted'. I know people who put in 14 hour days because they genuinely just enjoy it. I'm one of them. You always have to try and get a good balance between work and family, but I don't think the article really considers the instance where people choose to work long hours because they enjoy what they do. 'Doing a startup' is surely enjoyable work. That's why people enjoy working more, and why they put in more hours. I keep saying I'll get an early night, then at 1am or 2am there I am just finishing off some detail. That doesn't mean I'm addicted or have a problem, it means I'm enjoying myself and loose track of time. Was Mozart 'addicted' to writing music? Or was he just a prolific composer? We've heard this same blog post 100 times before from 37signals though :/ - "Listen to us and we'll show you our special system to allow you to work less!"

rudd 17y ago
Enjoying yourself such that you lose track of time -- when it happens all the time -- is a bad thing. Imagine yourself saying the same thing about anything else you can get addicted to. "I watch 14 hours of television a day because I genuinely just enjoy it." "I drink 14 bottles of beer a day because I genuinely just enjoy it."
- bumblebird 17y ago
  It's not the same. Beer has an effect on your liver, your general health, wallet etc. Sure, everything in moderation, but if you enjoy something, do it. If you suddenly realize that you had neglected something/someone else, then that's another matter.
  - lutorm 17y ago
    And doing other things to excess doesn't have an effect or your health? Burnout from work is a real thing, and working "because you love it" does not inoculate you from it.
- swombat 17y ago
  Yes and no. What if you were so excited about painting that you spent 16 hours a day painting. You produce the greatest masterpieces man has ever seen, you change the world of art forever... but yeah, you're an addict. So what? What's so bad about being addicted to something worthwhile? It's pretty usual to hear about musicians who will spend 20 hours a day in the studio getting their songs just right. Artists of all types do the whole obsessive addiction thing all the time, but we don't point at them and say "hey, you better chill out, don't worry about trying to achieve Artistic Nirvana, just chill out and have a beer with some friends instead". Being an alcoholic or a coke addict is bad because it's an empty addiction that produces nothing of worth and destroys you along the way. Being an art or business addict is a different thing altogether. There's a good reason why there's no "artaholics anonymous" group. Art is worth getting addicted to. Arguably, so is business.
  - mechanical_fish 17y ago
    you spent 16 hours a day painting. You produce the greatest masterpieces man has ever seen... The cultural bias is staring at us right here: You've implicitly assumed that working 16 hours per day is the way to produce great work. Not necessarily true. There are, of course, artists who do their work in intense sleepless binges, because when the spirit moves them they forget everything else, even food and sleep. There are also artists who can't work unless they're drunk or stoned. But consider the possibility that this is not the source of their power. This is a handicap that they must overcome. I know it's difficult to imagine a twenty-year-old version of Steve Wozniak that was even more productive. But everything we know about sleep suggests that if Steve had been able to convince himself to get more rest in the middle of his legendary weekend-long hacking binges, he would indeed have been even more productive. Woz got through that, of course, because he had the brain cycles to waste. As for this: Artists of all types do the whole obsessive addiction thing all the time, but we don't point at them and say "hey, you better chill out, don't worry about trying to achieve Artistic Nirvana... No, we don't, but that's a flaw in our culture. Are you suggesting that it would have been a bad idea to try and get, say, Ramanujan to take some time out to rest and feed himself, rather than letting him remain so addicted to short-term mathematical highs that he let his health decline and died at an early age? Our romantic artistic culture idolizes burnouts and addicts: Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis. This leads to the illusion that acting like a burnout and acting like an artist are aspects of the same thing. But being a great artist is more about persistence than intensity. It is actually far better for your development as a musician, for example, to practice a few hours a day for a long series of days than to try to pack more practice into each day. Your mind needs rest to assimilate and organize what it learns. Another point: Many of the musicians who spend 20 hours a day in the studio do so for economic reasons. Every hour of studio time costs money, lots of money, and getting set up in the studio takes hours and hours of work, so once you get set up you have to use the studio as intensely as possible before you have to break down the instruments and pack them up. It makes one wonder how much of the I-don't-need-sleep-I'm-a-superhacker culture derives from the days when hacking took place in night-long binges because the computer's time was cheaper late at night. That was a rational reason to stay up all night. But now computers are cheaper than furniture and there's no reason for a tech worker not to get some sleep. You'll think better.
jasonlbaptiste 17y ago
When I get drunk, I also lose track of time and enjoy myself quite a bit. If I were an alcoholic, that doesn't mean its right. Trust me, im all for enjoying work, but this startup culture mentality of: "outwork the other guy 16 hours a day and have nothing else" is getting out of hand.
- bumblebird 17y ago
  What startup mentality. Where? When did it start getting out of hand? Some data needed there me thinks.
  - jasonlbaptiste 17y ago
    data would actually be really interesting. take a survey of early startup employees and entrepreneurs. in the meantime, if you spend enough time around the industry culture, you know this is a problem.
    - staunch 17y ago
      We have some! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582 40-50 66 (25.00%) 50-60 52 (19.70%) 30-40 42 (15.91%) 60-70 35 (13.26%) 80+ 21 (7.95%) 70-80 16 (6.06%) 5-20 14 (5.30%) 20-30 11 (4.17%) 0-4 7 (2.65%) 264 points over 9 options
      - bumblebird 17y ago
        Cool, but you can't say "it's getting out of hand" from a single data point.
        bumblebird 17y ago
        What is wrong with you HN? "Getting out of hand" relates to the rate of change. Not a single data point.

rudd 17y ago

Enjoying yourself such that you lose track of time -- when it happens all the time -- is a bad thing. Imagine yourself saying the same thing about anything else you can get addicted to. "I watch 14 hours of television a day because I genuinely just enjoy it." "I drink 14 bottles of beer a day because I genuinely just enjoy it."

bumblebird 17y ago
It's not the same. Beer has an effect on your liver, your general health, wallet etc. Sure, everything in moderation, but if you enjoy something, do it. If you suddenly realize that you had neglected something/someone else, then that's another matter.
- lutorm 17y ago
  And doing other things to excess doesn't have an effect or your health? Burnout from work is a real thing, and working "because you love it" does not inoculate you from it.
swombat 17y ago
Yes and no. What if you were so excited about painting that you spent 16 hours a day painting. You produce the greatest masterpieces man has ever seen, you change the world of art forever... but yeah, you're an addict. So what? What's so bad about being addicted to something worthwhile? It's pretty usual to hear about musicians who will spend 20 hours a day in the studio getting their songs just right. Artists of all types do the whole obsessive addiction thing all the time, but we don't point at them and say "hey, you better chill out, don't worry about trying to achieve Artistic Nirvana, just chill out and have a beer with some friends instead". Being an alcoholic or a coke addict is bad because it's an empty addiction that produces nothing of worth and destroys you along the way. Being an art or business addict is a different thing altogether. There's a good reason why there's no "artaholics anonymous" group. Art is worth getting addicted to. Arguably, so is business.
- mechanical_fish 17y ago
  you spent 16 hours a day painting. You produce the greatest masterpieces man has ever seen... The cultural bias is staring at us right here: You've implicitly assumed that working 16 hours per day is the way to produce great work. Not necessarily true. There are, of course, artists who do their work in intense sleepless binges, because when the spirit moves them they forget everything else, even food and sleep. There are also artists who can't work unless they're drunk or stoned. But consider the possibility that this is not the source of their power. This is a handicap that they must overcome. I know it's difficult to imagine a twenty-year-old version of Steve Wozniak that was even more productive. But everything we know about sleep suggests that if Steve had been able to convince himself to get more rest in the middle of his legendary weekend-long hacking binges, he would indeed have been even more productive. Woz got through that, of course, because he had the brain cycles to waste. As for this: Artists of all types do the whole obsessive addiction thing all the time, but we don't point at them and say "hey, you better chill out, don't worry about trying to achieve Artistic Nirvana... No, we don't, but that's a flaw in our culture. Are you suggesting that it would have been a bad idea to try and get, say, Ramanujan to take some time out to rest and feed himself, rather than letting him remain so addicted to short-term mathematical highs that he let his health decline and died at an early age? Our romantic artistic culture idolizes burnouts and addicts: Kurt Cobain, Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, Marilyn Monroe, Elvis. This leads to the illusion that acting like a burnout and acting like an artist are aspects of the same thing. But being a great artist is more about persistence than intensity. It is actually far better for your development as a musician, for example, to practice a few hours a day for a long series of days than to try to pack more practice into each day. Your mind needs rest to assimilate and organize what it learns. Another point: Many of the musicians who spend 20 hours a day in the studio do so for economic reasons. Every hour of studio time costs money, lots of money, and getting set up in the studio takes hours and hours of work, so once you get set up you have to use the studio as intensely as possible before you have to break down the instruments and pack them up. It makes one wonder how much of the I-don't-need-sleep-I'm-a-superhacker culture derives from the days when hacking took place in night-long binges because the computer's time was cheaper late at night. That was a rational reason to stay up all night. But now computers are cheaper than furniture and there's no reason for a tech worker not to get some sleep. You'll think better.

jasonlbaptiste 17y ago

When I get drunk, I also lose track of time and enjoy myself quite a bit. If I were an alcoholic, that doesn't mean its right. Trust me, im all for enjoying work, but this startup culture mentality of: "outwork the other guy 16 hours a day and have nothing else" is getting out of hand.

bumblebird 17y ago
What startup mentality. Where? When did it start getting out of hand? Some data needed there me thinks.
- jasonlbaptiste 17y ago
  data would actually be really interesting. take a survey of early startup employees and entrepreneurs. in the meantime, if you spend enough time around the industry culture, you know this is a problem.
  - staunch 17y ago
    We have some! http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=330582 40-50 66 (25.00%) 50-60 52 (19.70%) 30-40 42 (15.91%) 60-70 35 (13.26%) 80+ 21 (7.95%) 70-80 16 (6.06%) 5-20 14 (5.30%) 20-30 11 (4.17%) 0-4 7 (2.65%) 264 points over 9 options
    - bumblebird 17y ago
      Cool, but you can't say "it's getting out of hand" from a single data point.
      - bumblebird 17y ago
        What is wrong with you HN? "Getting out of hand" relates to the rate of change. Not a single data point.