6 ms·

The level of abuse the author has endured is ridiculous and she certainly has my sympathies. It reminds me of Louis CK's routine about why he doesn't give his k

The level of abuse the author has endured is ridiculous and she certainly has my sympathies. It reminds me of Louis CK's routine about why he doesn't give his kids cell phones (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbYScltf1c) which boils down to without seeing the other person they can't empathize about the effect their words will have on other people. I can't help but wonder how these pseudo-anonymous people will feel when they find out that they aren't all that anonymous in the long run. When gawker unmasked "Reddits biggest troll" Violentacrez he certainly had a change of feelings when he had to stand behind his words and actions[1]. Freedom of speech is one of our most important values and anonymity is an important source for social change and equality for all. Using these gifts to rain down insults on others rarely works out well though in person and likely won't work out well on the internet in the long run either. [1] http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the-biggest-troll-on-the-web http://gawker.com/5950981/unmasking-reddits-violentacrez-the...

TTPrograms 11y ago
I've sort of thought that this was a fairly consistent phenomenon since the origin of the internet, and that as more and more people come online they've been exposed to it and don't think it's reasonable. And to some extent they're right - it's not reasonable. Unfortunately being a public figure, especially by critiquing that phenomena, is going to attract more of that abuse. It pains me to see people call that sort of thing an issue with the "tech industry", though. Not that the tech industry is perfect, but that grouping in the internet trolls with people who care and want to fix the things that do need fixing is really counter-productive when you're trying to win a war of hearts and minds.
- marcus_holmes 11y ago
  It's not so much grouping internet trolls with the tech industry, but that the tech industry is having a problem with its troll population. This might be purely because we're the first out of the trenches... we got the first trolls because we were the first to adopt online communication, and we have the first gamergate because we're still ahead of other industries/communities. I think we need to associate this sort of thing with the tech industry, because only then will we be able to fix it. Shrugging it off as "universal behaviour" will just mean no-one tries to do anything about it. In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. You (as an individual) may not and I may not, but we as an industry troll our women and minorities. And until we as an industry accept that we do this (and that it's a bad thing that we need to stop doing) it'll never stop.
  - TTPrograms 11y ago
    >we as an industry troll our women and minorities Is one person enough to blame the entire industry? Or two? Perhaps 10% of the industry is trolling women and minorities. Is there any evidence of that level of participation? >In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. This sort of ultimatum is exactly the thing that promotes hostility against confronting these issues. If somebody wants to help, why do they also have to take blame? It actively turns people away who refuse to take that blame. It makes no sense.
    - marcus_holmes 11y ago
      OK, fair point. So you don't like taking blame for other people's bad actions, even if those others are part of your community. I get that. We're also having that discussion around Islam too. But to my mind, this is what makes a community a community. If good things happen we all share credit, so when bad things happen we all share blame. We, collectively, respond to events together. And we police ourselves, which is a form of taking responsibility as a community for the actions of a minority of our members. So yes, if one of us behaves like an asshole then we as a community take responsibility for that, deal with the asshole, and apologise to the victim. However, if one of us behaves like an asshole, and we as a community shrug our shoulders and say "not our problem, some people are just assholes" then other communities do have a right to say that we condone it, that we are at fault, that we as a community are behaving badly. That's how I see it anyway, and why I think we need to accept responsibility.
      - forgottenpass 11y ago
        Your post has inadvertently cemented how little sense of community I get from being a "tech" person. Tech doesn't feel like a town hall meeting in a new home I just haven't integrated with yet, it feels like commuting into NYC for work and looking around on a subway car. I don't know what shared credit or shame I take part in sharing that is specific enough to identify with. Do we really respond to events together? A decade ago I may have said yes, but now all the opinions I see getting play are bog standard points plucked from the American political spectrum. Nothing wrong with that pre se, it just indicates to me whatever tech was, it's too large and/or too assimilated to have unique perspectives anymore. The "voices" of tech are more and more often tech-adjacent rabble rousers or wanna-be standard-bearers. I don't identify with them any more than I do the corporate speech of big brands trying to play up the fact their core product is software in an attempt to use the cachet of tech and make their corporatism more palatable. Over a decade ago I did have a sense of community in tech, but even then it was a community defined by unreasonable passion in a corner of a subfeild. Now that the headcount has exploded across the board, I'm supposed to own a non-programmer troll on twitter, or micro-aggressions at an office more degrees of separation away from myself than Kevin Bacon? The only time I felt any sense of community in the last few years, is when someone is telling me I belong to one and online harassment is my responsibility.

TTPrograms 11y ago

I've sort of thought that this was a fairly consistent phenomenon since the origin of the internet, and that as more and more people come online they've been exposed to it and don't think it's reasonable. And to some extent they're right - it's not reasonable. Unfortunately being a public figure, especially by critiquing that phenomena, is going to attract more of that abuse. It pains me to see people call that sort of thing an issue with the "tech industry", though. Not that the tech industry is perfect, but that grouping in the internet trolls with people who care and want to fix the things that do need fixing is really counter-productive when you're trying to win a war of hearts and minds.

marcus_holmes 11y ago
It's not so much grouping internet trolls with the tech industry, but that the tech industry is having a problem with its troll population. This might be purely because we're the first out of the trenches... we got the first trolls because we were the first to adopt online communication, and we have the first gamergate because we're still ahead of other industries/communities. I think we need to associate this sort of thing with the tech industry, because only then will we be able to fix it. Shrugging it off as "universal behaviour" will just mean no-one tries to do anything about it. In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. You (as an individual) may not and I may not, but we as an industry troll our women and minorities. And until we as an industry accept that we do this (and that it's a bad thing that we need to stop doing) it'll never stop.
- TTPrograms 11y ago
  >we as an industry troll our women and minorities Is one person enough to blame the entire industry? Or two? Perhaps 10% of the industry is trolling women and minorities. Is there any evidence of that level of participation? >In order to "un-fuck" this industry, we do need to accept that we do this. This sort of ultimatum is exactly the thing that promotes hostility against confronting these issues. If somebody wants to help, why do they also have to take blame? It actively turns people away who refuse to take that blame. It makes no sense.
  - marcus_holmes 11y ago
    OK, fair point. So you don't like taking blame for other people's bad actions, even if those others are part of your community. I get that. We're also having that discussion around Islam too. But to my mind, this is what makes a community a community. If good things happen we all share credit, so when bad things happen we all share blame. We, collectively, respond to events together. And we police ourselves, which is a form of taking responsibility as a community for the actions of a minority of our members. So yes, if one of us behaves like an asshole then we as a community take responsibility for that, deal with the asshole, and apologise to the victim. However, if one of us behaves like an asshole, and we as a community shrug our shoulders and say "not our problem, some people are just assholes" then other communities do have a right to say that we condone it, that we are at fault, that we as a community are behaving badly. That's how I see it anyway, and why I think we need to accept responsibility.
    - forgottenpass 11y ago
      Your post has inadvertently cemented how little sense of community I get from being a "tech" person. Tech doesn't feel like a town hall meeting in a new home I just haven't integrated with yet, it feels like commuting into NYC for work and looking around on a subway car. I don't know what shared credit or shame I take part in sharing that is specific enough to identify with. Do we really respond to events together? A decade ago I may have said yes, but now all the opinions I see getting play are bog standard points plucked from the American political spectrum. Nothing wrong with that pre se, it just indicates to me whatever tech was, it's too large and/or too assimilated to have unique perspectives anymore. The "voices" of tech are more and more often tech-adjacent rabble rousers or wanna-be standard-bearers. I don't identify with them any more than I do the corporate speech of big brands trying to play up the fact their core product is software in an attempt to use the cachet of tech and make their corporatism more palatable. Over a decade ago I did have a sense of community in tech, but even then it was a community defined by unreasonable passion in a corner of a subfeild. Now that the headcount has exploded across the board, I'm supposed to own a non-programmer troll on twitter, or micro-aggressions at an office more degrees of separation away from myself than Kevin Bacon? The only time I felt any sense of community in the last few years, is when someone is telling me I belong to one and online harassment is my responsibility.