7 ms·

Given Steve Klabnik's recent actions to suppress people who hold political opinions he does not like, I have a considerable amount of trepidation knowing he has

Given Steve Klabnik's recent actions to suppress people who hold political opinions he does not like, I have a considerable amount of trepidation knowing he has a leadership position in the community sub-team.

worklogin 11y ago
You'll get downvoted when you make seemingly opinionated statements with no context.
- throw982734 11y ago
  Downvotes don't bother me. Being ostracized from the Rust community would, however, hence the throwaway.
  - kibwen 11y ago
    If you feel as though any member of the Rust team is failing to uphold the principles of the project then you may contact the moderation team at rust-mods@googlegroups.com . Note that that is a private mailing list and that Steve is not on the moderation team (nor is any member of the Rust core team, by design).
    - MetaCosm 11y ago
      Interesting, how was the mod team picked? I think it is a good check to have it be separate from the Rust team (assuming it wasn't picked by and answers to the Rust team).
      - kibwen 11y ago
        The moderation team was conceived and designed by Manish Goregaokar, an experienced moderator from Stack Overflow and a volunteer for the Servo project. The original roster for the mod team was picked by Manish and the core team, though moving forward the mod team can expand its ranks on its own. Also notice that the moderation team has no formal leader, every member has the same amount of authority. One of their explicit goals is to police the other teams, including the core team, hence the requirement for disjoint membership between the mod team and the core team.
        MetaCosm 11y ago
        That seems... less good honestly, but gotta start some where I guess. Friends-network effect should grow weaker with time (or at first big drama blowup).
        Manishearth 11y ago
        Uh, the team wasn't picked by me :) (I also think part of the design of the mod team was done by Aaron, based off of my sketch of a design) (I'm also not a stack overflow mod, I'm a mod on a couple of stack exchange sites -- though I have observed how stack overflow is moderates)
        freditup 11y ago
        What exactly is the goal of the group? What does it mean that they "police the other teams"? This is just out of pure curiosity, I find the idea of having a mod team for a large, public project interesting but a bit strange.
        Manishearth 11y ago
        Well, policing the other teams is just part of the mod team's responsibilities. The design of the mod team can be found in the RfC[1]. The driving philosophy is to try and deescalate any situations which may crop up, either in situ or by privately discussing with the involved parties. It's easy to forget that the People on The Internet are humans too, so a technical discussion that gets heated sometimes needs a reminder to keep civil. The purpose is to make sure that the code of conduct[2] is upheld online. Rust has had a CoC for a while now, but it wasn't enforced. This meant that users violating it in reality were free to continue violating it without much repercussions. And this had happened a couple of times; users were warned after being abrasive but no action was ever taken and it just got worse. The mod team can enforce the CoC by temporarily blocking a user from the project if warnings are ignored. Deescalate whenever possible, and if it doesn't work out, warn/act on the warnings. Policing other teams is a part of it; the core team and subteams are also subject to moderation; which is why no core team member is on the mod team. In case of an ugly dispute between a core team member and some other user the mod team is a more impartial way of resolving it. Though in practice I don't think the core team would ever be in such a situation. People often say that technical communities should stay technical and not worry about civility or other social issues. In my experience this rarely turns out well, aside from Rust I've seen this idea cause problems in other technical communities. Technical communities are, in the end, communities, and community health is something that needs tending. Maintaining civility and avoiding the exclusion (active or passive) of other users is a part of it, and that's something the mod team handles. [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust-governance.md#moderation-team https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust... [2]: http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - bluehex 11y ago
    This attack on Steve with only tweets taken out of context as evidence seems pretty unfair to me. Steve's been nothing but extremely polite and helpful in every interaction I've seen him have in the Rust community. He's only ever fought for inclusiveness and respect. How about giving him the benefit of the doubt, and admitting he's good for the community. I believe he's already contributed a lot to the culture of inclusiveness and friendliness in the community that you mention you'd be bothered to be "ostracized" from.
    - alfiedotwtf 11y ago
      Sorry Steve, I only have one upvote for this comment. Your help with sheparding the Rust community should be held as an example for other communities to follow. Many thanks.
      - steveklabnik 11y ago
        <3
    - steveklabnik 11y ago
      <3
kibwen 11y ago
Would you like to cite a source?
- throw982734 11y ago
  https://gist.github.com/steveklabnik/7cd3267a631c4847c34d https://gist.github.com/steveklabnik/7cd3267a631c4847c34d amongst more It is especially troubling to have a community leader who equates speech with violence, even "hate" speech, which in that gist is clearly demonstrated to be completely subjective.
  - Rusky 11y ago
    Looks to me like you'll be fine as long as you don't try to legitimize slavery, nazism, or harassment? Is that a problem? /s
    - hates_shrooms 11y ago
      Let's extend this to people who try to legitimize gulags, communism, and online mob action. Ban all Rust related shit.
    - throw982734 11y ago
      Do you feel that mentioning the existence of slavery legitimizes it? Please do let me know. I won't bother with the rest as it had literally nothing to do with the topic, those examples were brought in as a rhetorical device to bolster what, on examination, was a totally unsupported accusation.
      - lambda 11y ago
        Moldbug did not simply "mention the existence of slavery." He explicitly celebrated it. He talked about it being a natural order. He argued that "the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery." This is pure, racist drivel. This is an evil way of thinking. There is a reason that racism, genocide, slavery are so abhorred in the modern world; they are poisonous ideas that have caused some of the largest atrocities history has known. He also explicitly argues for a dictatorship beholden only to landowners: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/secession-liberty-and-dictatorship.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/seces.... He admits that his influences and design are similar to those of the Nazism and Stalinism. He is a fascist, arguing for a violent dictatorship, and arguing that slavery is a natural order. These are not mere rhetorical devices; this is the core of his argument. His entire argument is steeped in violence.
Certhas 11y ago
Freedom of expression does not entitle you to freedom from consequences of your expressions. My freedom to dress as I want does not mean it is reasonable to demand to be treated equally when I am wearing a garbage bag to a meeting. My freedom to not shower does not mean it is reasonable to demand to be treated equally when I stink up the place. Instead it is entirely reasonable to ask me to leave. If a community manager asks people who express toxic opinions to leave, that is entirely reasonable. It's their job in fact. And make no mistake, the opinions of others you have linked to as being "suppressed" are toxic, so much so that in many countries [1] they would be considered illegal. [1] And I am talking about countries that rank significantly higher than the US on the press freedom index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_a... And outscore the US on the freedom house report on both civil liberties and political rights: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/germany#.VY0yjOefOx0 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/germany#.... https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/united-states#.VY0yvuefOx0 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/united-st... So please save your "Europeans don't care about freedom of expression" tropes.

worklogin 11y ago

You'll get downvoted when you make seemingly opinionated statements with no context.

throw982734 11y ago
Downvotes don't bother me. Being ostracized from the Rust community would, however, hence the throwaway.
- kibwen 11y ago
  If you feel as though any member of the Rust team is failing to uphold the principles of the project then you may contact the moderation team at rust-mods@googlegroups.com . Note that that is a private mailing list and that Steve is not on the moderation team (nor is any member of the Rust core team, by design).
  - MetaCosm 11y ago
    Interesting, how was the mod team picked? I think it is a good check to have it be separate from the Rust team (assuming it wasn't picked by and answers to the Rust team).
    - kibwen 11y ago
      The moderation team was conceived and designed by Manish Goregaokar, an experienced moderator from Stack Overflow and a volunteer for the Servo project. The original roster for the mod team was picked by Manish and the core team, though moving forward the mod team can expand its ranks on its own. Also notice that the moderation team has no formal leader, every member has the same amount of authority. One of their explicit goals is to police the other teams, including the core team, hence the requirement for disjoint membership between the mod team and the core team.
      - MetaCosm 11y ago
        That seems... less good honestly, but gotta start some where I guess. Friends-network effect should grow weaker with time (or at first big drama blowup).
      - Manishearth 11y ago
        Uh, the team wasn't picked by me :) (I also think part of the design of the mod team was done by Aaron, based off of my sketch of a design) (I'm also not a stack overflow mod, I'm a mod on a couple of stack exchange sites -- though I have observed how stack overflow is moderates)
      - freditup 11y ago
        What exactly is the goal of the group? What does it mean that they "police the other teams"? This is just out of pure curiosity, I find the idea of having a mod team for a large, public project interesting but a bit strange.
        Manishearth 11y ago
        Well, policing the other teams is just part of the mod team's responsibilities. The design of the mod team can be found in the RfC[1]. The driving philosophy is to try and deescalate any situations which may crop up, either in situ or by privately discussing with the involved parties. It's easy to forget that the People on The Internet are humans too, so a technical discussion that gets heated sometimes needs a reminder to keep civil. The purpose is to make sure that the code of conduct[2] is upheld online. Rust has had a CoC for a while now, but it wasn't enforced. This meant that users violating it in reality were free to continue violating it without much repercussions. And this had happened a couple of times; users were warned after being abrasive but no action was ever taken and it just got worse. The mod team can enforce the CoC by temporarily blocking a user from the project if warnings are ignored. Deescalate whenever possible, and if it doesn't work out, warn/act on the warnings. Policing other teams is a part of it; the core team and subteams are also subject to moderation; which is why no core team member is on the mod team. In case of an ugly dispute between a core team member and some other user the mod team is a more impartial way of resolving it. Though in practice I don't think the core team would ever be in such a situation. People often say that technical communities should stay technical and not worry about civility or other social issues. In my experience this rarely turns out well, aside from Rust I've seen this idea cause problems in other technical communities. Technical communities are, in the end, communities, and community health is something that needs tending. Maintaining civility and avoiding the exclusion (active or passive) of other users is a part of it, and that's something the mod team handles. [1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust-governance.md#moderation-team https://github.com/rust-lang/rfcs/blob/master/text/1068-rust... [2]: http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- bluehex 11y ago
  This attack on Steve with only tweets taken out of context as evidence seems pretty unfair to me. Steve's been nothing but extremely polite and helpful in every interaction I've seen him have in the Rust community. He's only ever fought for inclusiveness and respect. How about giving him the benefit of the doubt, and admitting he's good for the community. I believe he's already contributed a lot to the culture of inclusiveness and friendliness in the community that you mention you'd be bothered to be "ostracized" from.
  - alfiedotwtf 11y ago
    Sorry Steve, I only have one upvote for this comment. Your help with sheparding the Rust community should be held as an example for other communities to follow. Many thanks.
    - steveklabnik 11y ago
      <3
  - steveklabnik 11y ago
    <3

kibwen 11y ago

Would you like to cite a source?

throw982734 11y ago
https://gist.github.com/steveklabnik/7cd3267a631c4847c34d https://gist.github.com/steveklabnik/7cd3267a631c4847c34d amongst more It is especially troubling to have a community leader who equates speech with violence, even "hate" speech, which in that gist is clearly demonstrated to be completely subjective.
- Rusky 11y ago
  Looks to me like you'll be fine as long as you don't try to legitimize slavery, nazism, or harassment? Is that a problem? /s
  - hates_shrooms 11y ago
    Let's extend this to people who try to legitimize gulags, communism, and online mob action. Ban all Rust related shit.
  - throw982734 11y ago
    Do you feel that mentioning the existence of slavery legitimizes it? Please do let me know. I won't bother with the rest as it had literally nothing to do with the topic, those examples were brought in as a rhetorical device to bolster what, on examination, was a totally unsupported accusation.
    - lambda 11y ago
      Moldbug did not simply "mention the existence of slavery." He explicitly celebrated it. He talked about it being a natural order. He argued that "the innate character and intelligence of some is more suited to mastery than slavery." This is pure, racist drivel. This is an evil way of thinking. There is a reason that racism, genocide, slavery are so abhorred in the modern world; they are poisonous ideas that have caused some of the largest atrocities history has known. He also explicitly argues for a dictatorship beholden only to landowners: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/secession-liberty-and-dictatorship.html http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.co.uk/2009/07/seces.... He admits that his influences and design are similar to those of the Nazism and Stalinism. He is a fascist, arguing for a violent dictatorship, and arguing that slavery is a natural order. These are not mere rhetorical devices; this is the core of his argument. His entire argument is steeped in violence.

Certhas 11y ago

Freedom of expression does not entitle you to freedom from consequences of your expressions. My freedom to dress as I want does not mean it is reasonable to demand to be treated equally when I am wearing a garbage bag to a meeting. My freedom to not shower does not mean it is reasonable to demand to be treated equally when I stink up the place. Instead it is entirely reasonable to ask me to leave. If a community manager asks people who express toxic opinions to leave, that is entirely reasonable. It's their job in fact. And make no mistake, the opinions of others you have linked to as being "suppressed" are toxic, so much so that in many countries [1] they would be considered illegal. [1] And I am talking about countries that rank significantly higher than the US on the press freedom index: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_and_scores_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Press_Freedom_Index#Rankings_a... And outscore the US on the freedom house report on both civil liberties and political rights: https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/germany#.VY0yjOefOx0 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/germany#.... https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/united-states#.VY0yvuefOx0 https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom-world/2015/united-st... So please save your "Europeans don't care about freedom of expression" tropes.