10 ms·

Lessons from Both Sides of an Interview Desk

50 points by grinnick 11y ago

Galanwe 11y ago
tl;dr Guy landed his first developer full time job at 30 and thinks he has valuable experience to share. Follows up some cliches of SF tech bubble recruitment tips.
- rpwilcox 11y ago
  And some obvious cultural differences between UK and US (ie: "budget 2 months to find another job". Which made me scratch my head... my experience lately has been 1-2 weeks, if that. And I'm not in a prime market either...)
  - jcadam 11y ago
    1-2 weeks? I don't believe it. Maybe in SV, where young developers are constantly being kidnapped off the street and forced at gunpoint to code for $200k+ and free lattes in swanky offices with foosball tables (or so I've been led to believe). My shortest job hunt took about a month, but I was a cheap junior dev then. These days, I'm constantly getting pinged by recruiters, but I know better than to take that as evidence that finding a new job would be easy. My last job hunt took almost 6 months (ok, I was being a bit selective). Hell, finding someone that didn't balk when I told them my current salary (and I was looking for a job in a fairly low COL area) took at least a month (and I'm too old to care about foosball tables and free lattes). And now my current job has been eroding pay/benefits and layering on useless processes and other BS. I can feel that itch coming on... better budget a year to be safe.
    - at-fates-hands 11y ago
      >>> My last job hunt took almost 6 months This has been my experience as well. Once I get the itch, I'll start looking, doing interviews and being pretty selective in where and who I want to work for. I think if you're not in a good place to begin with, you'll take something sooner and inevitably find yourself somewhere you don't want to be.
    - ryandrake 11y ago
      I am in the Bay Area and I would not budget anything less than 3 months start-to-finish for a job hunt. Companies are flaky, they don't get back to you, many have job postings but are just fishing (not serious about hiring). Most don't talk comp until late in the process so you could go down a rabbit hole with a company and find out their salary expectations are way out of line with yours. You could easily burn through months.
  - learnstats2 11y ago
    General job market advice is to budget (financially) 6 months to find another job. If you work in a high-demand sector, if you are experienced, if you're not bothered by the ethics of who you work for or about the conditions, and you are lucky, it might take you less time. Good. You saved yourself some budgeted time and you should be happy about this. There are plenty of jobs where you won't even get through the door in 1-2 weeks. Many companies have hiring cycles that don't allow that level of flexibility.
  - GvS 11y ago
    I've found new job in one day two years ago, but year ago it took me over 2 months. Luck is also big factor.
- smikhanov 11y ago
  He's not in SF, but your comment is mostly spot on. I liked this part especially: This first example is a docx file. It means you’re likely using Windows, which is a negative in the Ruby world. Sure, file format is absolutely a right metric to use when going through resumes.
  - learnstats2 11y ago
    Being able to send files in an appropriate format is a communication skill, a basic skill for any employment, and .docx is almost never appropriate. You're going to be dinged for a Word doc by some people, some of the time. You created a % chance that your job application got thrown away for something easily remedied. At least take one second to convert to a more generally-viewable PDF. Besides which, the article is talking about code. Why would anyone cut and paste code into a Word doc at all? A waste of time for everyone involved.
    - exelius 11y ago
      .docx is often very appropriate; it's one of the most widely used formats out there and is readable by pretty much any word processor out there. Agreed that it's probably not the best choice for sending code, but the author's point wasn't that it's a terrible format, just that it's a terrible format for code reviews. PDF is equally awful for the reasons the author describes (lack of syntax coloring, inability to run the code, etc.) Though IMO the author should just be explicit about what he wants; playing mind games with people is never a good idea, and it just self-selects for people who have used GitHub professionally. Choice of SCM system is almost never up to an individual developer anyway, are you going to ding someone with otherwise great credentials because their company uses Mercurial? It takes all of an hour to learn how to use GitHub anyway. Anyway, I echo the comments I've seen elsewhere that a guy who got his first "adult job" at 30 then hired some people less than a year later is probably not the best person to take career advice from. This guy makes a lot of novice mistakes in his interviewing practices; so take this as a perspective on how some companies do hiring and not a definitive guide of the right way to do things.
      - 11y ago
sageabilly 11y ago
Having been on both sides of the interview desk and read pretty much every piece of resume/interview advice out there, basically don't take any resume or interview advice from anyone who hasn't done extensive hiring/interviewing/vetting of candidates.
- tacostakohashi 11y ago
  I can't agree more. For whatever reason, this seems to be an area where everybody feels qualified to give advice (in many cases, it seems to be older people who have not interviewed in a long time who advise any younger / fresh graduate who will listen). Examples: * Customize your resume for each job you apply to. This is completely impractical these days, when any given job is likely to attract hundreds of resumes, and your chances of getting a response from any single application are slim. It's far more practical to work on something generic and breif that you can use for any appealing job in your field, and go into more detail if and when an interview is held. Also, if you have to bend their skills and experience in different ways for different jobs, you're probably applying for positions that you're a marginal fit for, instead of waiting for finding a job that you're a better, obvious fit for on the basis of your generic, undoctored resume. * Always wear a suit to the interview. Again, often said, but a gross simplification. Obviously you need to dress well for the part, but in many industries / cities, you'll end up on the other side of the table from a guy in jeans and a T-shirt, and have a tough time building a connection. Definitely worth taking any advice in this area with a huge grain of salt unless it's really from an expert in the relevant area.
  - cmdkeen 11y ago
    On the suit front the thing I always bear in mind is that it is always easier to dress down than it is to dress up. Removing a tie or a jacket is much easier to do, and an easy way to start a discussion about company culture. Much better than belatedly realising the developers may wear jeans but this interview process also involves HR people or senior types. Unless the company is the sort of faddish place which makes it clear that they never wear smart clothes I would personally always suit up. "Business casual" especially is a social minefield. That said I don't mind wearing a suit to work, if you're vehemently pro-casual clothes then you might want to go the other way and make a point of it. That said I've yet to be convinced that in tech there is a time you won't need to dress smartly, even Zuck wore a suit recently...
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
oliverc2 11y ago
This one is much much better: http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-testers/ http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester...
zhte415 11y ago
This advice states: For example, consider the file format you use when you respond. Here’s a couple of examples of response formats I’ve dealt with and what it makes me think of you. [screenshot] This first example is a docx file. It means you’re likely using Windows But the [screenshot] is from OSX. Is asking someone for prepared source code a good idea? I don't know, and have never asked. Sure I've looked at source online that's been referenced, but asking for a bunch of code... desperate copy paste from an existing non open sourced project seems a likely response, and not a good one. > If definitely means you didn’t go out of your way to make it easy for me to read your code because there’s no syntax highlighting and the font is horrible. 'If' is a typo If -> It). I only get pedantic when pedantic is necessary. A blog post getting pedantic while not eating your own dog food isn't great. Cover letter: Seemed short and flippant. Perhaps this in is vogue where you are. I know a lot of Irish developers that would tailor something a lot more detailed and specific by default. Agree with the author's points saying "I don't know" and general CV tips. 一半 [e-ban]. Half full advice, or half empty; basics with no real insight.
FLUX-YOU 11y ago
>I had about 3 years of professional freelancing and contract experience and a handful of side projects. I have a reasonably active Github account with a couple of open source projects. I even sometimes write code related blog posts and put them on the internet where nobody ever reads them. >I probably came across as your average “better than junior but not quite senior” developer. Man, I hope you're just being modest otherwise that's bad news for me.
- wheaties 11y ago
  3yrs experience is not senior. He's right on the money there.
  - 67726e 11y ago
    I mean, that damn near fits the bill for me last year when I left my first job and was looking for a mid level position. 3 years professional experience, had been doing some limited freelancing/consulting in that time, and for a couple years before that. Even have a blog post where I log pain-in-the-ass problems and the solutions to them. Titles are a giant fog since every company has their own system, but I view Junior X as someone with no experience beyond maybe an internship, but your mileage will vary. That's how it's been at the places I interviewed/talked to back then, and right now. Having 3 years good experience puts you on the bottom rung of middle tier.

50 points by grinnick 11y ago

tl;dr Guy landed his first developer full time job at 30 and thinks he has valuable experience to share. Follows up some cliches of SF tech bubble recruitment tips.

rpwilcox 11y ago
And some obvious cultural differences between UK and US (ie: "budget 2 months to find another job". Which made me scratch my head... my experience lately has been 1-2 weeks, if that. And I'm not in a prime market either...)
- jcadam 11y ago
  1-2 weeks? I don't believe it. Maybe in SV, where young developers are constantly being kidnapped off the street and forced at gunpoint to code for $200k+ and free lattes in swanky offices with foosball tables (or so I've been led to believe). My shortest job hunt took about a month, but I was a cheap junior dev then. These days, I'm constantly getting pinged by recruiters, but I know better than to take that as evidence that finding a new job would be easy. My last job hunt took almost 6 months (ok, I was being a bit selective). Hell, finding someone that didn't balk when I told them my current salary (and I was looking for a job in a fairly low COL area) took at least a month (and I'm too old to care about foosball tables and free lattes). And now my current job has been eroding pay/benefits and layering on useless processes and other BS. I can feel that itch coming on... better budget a year to be safe.
  - at-fates-hands 11y ago
    >>> My last job hunt took almost 6 months This has been my experience as well. Once I get the itch, I'll start looking, doing interviews and being pretty selective in where and who I want to work for. I think if you're not in a good place to begin with, you'll take something sooner and inevitably find yourself somewhere you don't want to be.
  - ryandrake 11y ago
    I am in the Bay Area and I would not budget anything less than 3 months start-to-finish for a job hunt. Companies are flaky, they don't get back to you, many have job postings but are just fishing (not serious about hiring). Most don't talk comp until late in the process so you could go down a rabbit hole with a company and find out their salary expectations are way out of line with yours. You could easily burn through months.
- learnstats2 11y ago
  General job market advice is to budget (financially) 6 months to find another job. If you work in a high-demand sector, if you are experienced, if you're not bothered by the ethics of who you work for or about the conditions, and you are lucky, it might take you less time. Good. You saved yourself some budgeted time and you should be happy about this. There are plenty of jobs where you won't even get through the door in 1-2 weeks. Many companies have hiring cycles that don't allow that level of flexibility.
- GvS 11y ago
  I've found new job in one day two years ago, but year ago it took me over 2 months. Luck is also big factor.
smikhanov 11y ago
He's not in SF, but your comment is mostly spot on. I liked this part especially: This first example is a docx file. It means you’re likely using Windows, which is a negative in the Ruby world. Sure, file format is absolutely a right metric to use when going through resumes.
- learnstats2 11y ago
  Being able to send files in an appropriate format is a communication skill, a basic skill for any employment, and .docx is almost never appropriate. You're going to be dinged for a Word doc by some people, some of the time. You created a % chance that your job application got thrown away for something easily remedied. At least take one second to convert to a more generally-viewable PDF. Besides which, the article is talking about code. Why would anyone cut and paste code into a Word doc at all? A waste of time for everyone involved.
  - exelius 11y ago
    .docx is often very appropriate; it's one of the most widely used formats out there and is readable by pretty much any word processor out there. Agreed that it's probably not the best choice for sending code, but the author's point wasn't that it's a terrible format, just that it's a terrible format for code reviews. PDF is equally awful for the reasons the author describes (lack of syntax coloring, inability to run the code, etc.) Though IMO the author should just be explicit about what he wants; playing mind games with people is never a good idea, and it just self-selects for people who have used GitHub professionally. Choice of SCM system is almost never up to an individual developer anyway, are you going to ding someone with otherwise great credentials because their company uses Mercurial? It takes all of an hour to learn how to use GitHub anyway. Anyway, I echo the comments I've seen elsewhere that a guy who got his first "adult job" at 30 then hired some people less than a year later is probably not the best person to take career advice from. This guy makes a lot of novice mistakes in his interviewing practices; so take this as a perspective on how some companies do hiring and not a definitive guide of the right way to do things.
    - 11y ago

sageabilly 11y ago

Having been on both sides of the interview desk and read pretty much every piece of resume/interview advice out there, basically don't take any resume or interview advice from anyone who hasn't done extensive hiring/interviewing/vetting of candidates.

tacostakohashi 11y ago
I can't agree more. For whatever reason, this seems to be an area where everybody feels qualified to give advice (in many cases, it seems to be older people who have not interviewed in a long time who advise any younger / fresh graduate who will listen). Examples: * Customize your resume for each job you apply to. This is completely impractical these days, when any given job is likely to attract hundreds of resumes, and your chances of getting a response from any single application are slim. It's far more practical to work on something generic and breif that you can use for any appealing job in your field, and go into more detail if and when an interview is held. Also, if you have to bend their skills and experience in different ways for different jobs, you're probably applying for positions that you're a marginal fit for, instead of waiting for finding a job that you're a better, obvious fit for on the basis of your generic, undoctored resume. * Always wear a suit to the interview. Again, often said, but a gross simplification. Obviously you need to dress well for the part, but in many industries / cities, you'll end up on the other side of the table from a guy in jeans and a T-shirt, and have a tough time building a connection. Definitely worth taking any advice in this area with a huge grain of salt unless it's really from an expert in the relevant area.
- cmdkeen 11y ago
  On the suit front the thing I always bear in mind is that it is always easier to dress down than it is to dress up. Removing a tie or a jacket is much easier to do, and an easy way to start a discussion about company culture. Much better than belatedly realising the developers may wear jeans but this interview process also involves HR people or senior types. Unless the company is the sort of faddish place which makes it clear that they never wear smart clothes I would personally always suit up. "Business casual" especially is a social minefield. That said I don't mind wearing a suit to work, if you're vehemently pro-casual clothes then you might want to go the other way and make a point of it. That said I've yet to be convinced that in tech there is a time you won't need to dress smartly, even Zuck wore a suit recently...

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

oliverc2 11y ago

This one is much much better: http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-testers/ http://ortask.com/a-better-way-to-hire-developers-and-tester...

zhte415 11y ago

This advice states: For example, consider the file format you use when you respond. Here’s a couple of examples of response formats I’ve dealt with and what it makes me think of you. [screenshot] This first example is a docx file. It means you’re likely using Windows But the [screenshot] is from OSX. Is asking someone for prepared source code a good idea? I don't know, and have never asked. Sure I've looked at source online that's been referenced, but asking for a bunch of code... desperate copy paste from an existing non open sourced project seems a likely response, and not a good one. > If definitely means you didn’t go out of your way to make it easy for me to read your code because there’s no syntax highlighting and the font is horrible. 'If' is a typo If -> It). I only get pedantic when pedantic is necessary. A blog post getting pedantic while not eating your own dog food isn't great. Cover letter: Seemed short and flippant. Perhaps this in is vogue where you are. I know a lot of Irish developers that would tailor something a lot more detailed and specific by default. Agree with the author's points saying "I don't know" and general CV tips. 一半 [e-ban]. Half full advice, or half empty; basics with no real insight.

FLUX-YOU 11y ago

>I had about 3 years of professional freelancing and contract experience and a handful of side projects. I have a reasonably active Github account with a couple of open source projects. I even sometimes write code related blog posts and put them on the internet where nobody ever reads them. >I probably came across as your average “better than junior but not quite senior” developer. Man, I hope you're just being modest otherwise that's bad news for me.

wheaties 11y ago
3yrs experience is not senior. He's right on the money there.
- 67726e 11y ago
  I mean, that damn near fits the bill for me last year when I left my first job and was looking for a mid level position. 3 years professional experience, had been doing some limited freelancing/consulting in that time, and for a couple years before that. Even have a blog post where I log pain-in-the-ass problems and the solutions to them. Titles are a giant fog since every company has their own system, but I view Junior X as someone with no experience beyond maybe an internship, but your mileage will vary. That's how it's been at the places I interviewed/talked to back then, and right now. Having 3 years good experience puts you on the bottom rung of middle tier.