6 ms·

> Questioning my right to exist with human dignity is not a "differing opinion", sorry. >It is a "differing opinion", you think you have the right to exist

by rylee 11y ago

> Questioning my right to exist with human dignity is not a "differing opinion", sorry. >It is a "differing opinion", you think you have the right to exist with human dignity, he does not. Even @meh knows he's in an uphill battle. This is a fucking joke. Who is transphobic in 2015? Why would you want someone like that on your team?

chazu 11y ago
I don't know the owner of the project, but it seems that they are more concerned about the possibility of their project becoming a political football than anything else, which makes sense to me - in theory. It also seems logical to point out that the contributor in question was effectively politicizing the project by making a bigoted comment on twitter, which undermines my previous statement. The core question to me, as someone who understands the desire to remain consciously apolitical (or to try to, as many would say its an impossible task), is this: is it even _possible_ for maintainers of projects to sidestep these sorts of things? What kind of code of conduct would a project need to adopt to make sure that issues like this detract minimally from the progress of the project itself? I'm curious what others who feel strongly about communities in OSS think.
- krainboltgreene 11y ago
  > is it even _possible_ for maintainers of projects to sidestep these sorts of things? You can try very hard but realistically we're human and we have biases and our biases dictate what we do. If you are transphobic it's going to influence your opinion of a changeset from a transgender person. That's how we're wired to work. > What kind of code of conduct would a project need to adopt to make sure that issues like this detract minimally from the progress of the project itself. The Clearwater.rb project pulled in the Contributor Covenant, for what that's wroth.
  - DanBC 11y ago
    What does a changeset from a trans person look like? I'm pretty sure people get more worked up about spaces vs tabs (at least they used to) or curly braces. I totally agree that any transphobic comments or activity connected to the project needs to be dealt with. But it's weird that people think this behaviour does anything to persuade the bigots. It's totally ineffective method of persuasion.
kbenson 11y ago
I think it's less an issue of wanting the person on your team than it is of respecting that someone may have separate personal and private personas and that should be respected. If it's wrong to exclude a transgender person from a team based on their personal views and lifestyle, what's the argument that explains why it's acceptable to exclude the transphobic person? Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions.
- krainboltgreene 11y ago
  > respecting that someone may have separate personal and private personas and that should be respected. It wasn't private. > Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions. That's. Not. How. Humans. Work.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > It wasn't private. But was it in the context of this project? Were the views expressed along with information that linked to this project, or did someone have to look into the person (I don't know, I'm asking). > That's. Not. How. Humans. Work. I reject any argument that we shouldn't at least try to tame our more troublesome quirks as a species. Where possible we should reject our pre-programmed response to stimuli where it steers us wrong in favor of rational thought.
  - wutbrodo 11y ago
    I suppose it's too much to expect that you understand the hilarious irony of what you're saying. Racism, sexism, discrimination against gay and transgender people, hating and fearing people different from you: all of these are "how humans work". If everyone had your attitude of fatalism towards "how humans work" instead of fighting against our baser animal instincts, we'd have long ago given up on combating those ills. Thank God most people don't think like you.
- quesera 11y ago
  > Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions. Your qualifier doesn't help though. Business, law, and society all run on (and through the expression of) cultural norms. Some of these cultural norms are regrettable, but you'll have a hard time getting large groups to agree on which ones are regrettable and which are the very foundations of our society.
joshuapants 11y ago
>Why would you want someone like that on your team? Presumably because their talents add value to the team. Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? If not, who cares?
- krainboltgreene 11y ago
  > Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Yes. > Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? Are any of his current or future team members transgender? Then yes. > If not, who cares? Wat.
  - joshuapants 11y ago
    As in "if his opinions don't affect the software and don't cause internal problems, then who cares." edit: Oh I see, you're the guy from the Twitter thread.
- rylee 11y ago
  >Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Excluding an entire swath of people. >Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? Any future or current trans members of the Opal team who are or would be dissuaded away from a bigot.
  - KingMob 11y ago
    Don't forget that while trans developers are probably incredibly rare, the amount of trans-accepting developers who might be dissuaded is probably higher, and likely to grow.
    - chazu 11y ago
      Anecdotally it seems to me that the percentage of developers who are trans is actually higher than in the general populace. I'd be curious to see statistics though.
  - 11y ago

by rylee 11y ago

chazu 11y ago

I don't know the owner of the project, but it seems that they are more concerned about the possibility of their project becoming a political football than anything else, which makes sense to me - in theory. It also seems logical to point out that the contributor in question was effectively politicizing the project by making a bigoted comment on twitter, which undermines my previous statement. The core question to me, as someone who understands the desire to remain consciously apolitical (or to try to, as many would say its an impossible task), is this: is it even _possible_ for maintainers of projects to sidestep these sorts of things? What kind of code of conduct would a project need to adopt to make sure that issues like this detract minimally from the progress of the project itself? I'm curious what others who feel strongly about communities in OSS think.

krainboltgreene 11y ago
> is it even _possible_ for maintainers of projects to sidestep these sorts of things? You can try very hard but realistically we're human and we have biases and our biases dictate what we do. If you are transphobic it's going to influence your opinion of a changeset from a transgender person. That's how we're wired to work. > What kind of code of conduct would a project need to adopt to make sure that issues like this detract minimally from the progress of the project itself. The Clearwater.rb project pulled in the Contributor Covenant, for what that's wroth.
- DanBC 11y ago
  What does a changeset from a trans person look like? I'm pretty sure people get more worked up about spaces vs tabs (at least they used to) or curly braces. I totally agree that any transphobic comments or activity connected to the project needs to be dealt with. But it's weird that people think this behaviour does anything to persuade the bigots. It's totally ineffective method of persuasion.

kbenson 11y ago

I think it's less an issue of wanting the person on your team than it is of respecting that someone may have separate personal and private personas and that should be respected. If it's wrong to exclude a transgender person from a team based on their personal views and lifestyle, what's the argument that explains why it's acceptable to exclude the transphobic person? Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions.

krainboltgreene 11y ago
> respecting that someone may have separate personal and private personas and that should be respected. It wasn't private. > Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions. That's. Not. How. Humans. Work.
- kbenson 11y ago
  > It wasn't private. But was it in the context of this project? Were the views expressed along with information that linked to this project, or did someone have to look into the person (I don't know, I'm asking). > That's. Not. How. Humans. Work. I reject any argument that we shouldn't at least try to tame our more troublesome quirks as a species. Where possible we should reject our pre-programmed response to stimuli where it steers us wrong in favor of rational thought.
- wutbrodo 11y ago
  I suppose it's too much to expect that you understand the hilarious irony of what you're saying. Racism, sexism, discrimination against gay and transgender people, hating and fearing people different from you: all of these are "how humans work". If everyone had your attitude of fatalism towards "how humans work" instead of fighting against our baser animal instincts, we'd have long ago given up on combating those ills. Thank God most people don't think like you.
quesera 11y ago
> Cultural norms should be removed, where possible, from professional decisions. Your qualifier doesn't help though. Business, law, and society all run on (and through the expression of) cultural norms. Some of these cultural norms are regrettable, but you'll have a hard time getting large groups to agree on which ones are regrettable and which are the very foundations of our society.

joshuapants 11y ago

>Why would you want someone like that on your team? Presumably because their talents add value to the team. Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? If not, who cares?

krainboltgreene 11y ago
> Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Yes. > Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? Are any of his current or future team members transgender? Then yes. > If not, who cares? Wat.
- joshuapants 11y ago
  As in "if his opinions don't affect the software and don't cause internal problems, then who cares." edit: Oh I see, you're the guy from the Twitter thread.
rylee 11y ago
>Do his opinions affect the software in any way? Excluding an entire swath of people. >Is he unable to work with other team members because of his opinions? Any future or current trans members of the Opal team who are or would be dissuaded away from a bigot.
- KingMob 11y ago
  Don't forget that while trans developers are probably incredibly rare, the amount of trans-accepting developers who might be dissuaded is probably higher, and likely to grow.
  - chazu 11y ago
    Anecdotally it seems to me that the percentage of developers who are trans is actually higher than in the general populace. I'd be curious to see statistics though.
- 11y ago