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Sound like sour grapes and No True Scotsman to me. The president, who is leading negotiations, was elected democratically, and Congress, who decides whether thi

Sound like sour grapes and No True Scotsman to me. The president, who is leading negotiations, was elected democratically, and Congress, who decides whether this treaty becomes law or not, was also elected democratically. If the people dislike how the government is doing things they have only themselves to blame for electing these representatives. To be honest I don't believe anybody really cares about the ideals of democracy. If the same secrecy was being used to push legislation you supported you wouldn't be whining at all, you would probably be defending it instead because you would rationalize that passing the law is more important than the method used to pass it.

calibraxis 11y ago
That's not democracy. That's doublespeak. The US's "Founding Fathers" hated democracy and stressed it was a republic. Those slaveowners wanted to protect minorities against majority rule — the wealthy minority. (Obviously they didn't mean African Americans and women.) Later politicians coopted the term "democracy", as marketing. One source to learn more is Graeber's "The Democracy Project". (http://lareviewofbooks.org/review/democracy-what-is-it-good-for-david-graeber-and-gar-alperovitz http://lareviewofbooks.org/review/democracy-what-is-it-good-...) Pushing a button every few years for your new corporate-sponsored king isn't meaningful democratic participation.
- MarcusVorenus 11y ago
  Obama is a union-sponsored king actually, so it's all good I guess.
  - lumberjack 11y ago
    Neither Obama nor Clinton are sponsored by unions. Their major sponsors are Wall St, universities, SV and Hollywood, i.e. typical wealthy democrats. http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 Maybe you were thinking about Bernie Sanders?
    - MarcusVorenus 11y ago
      Unions don't donate directly, they make independent campaign expenditures through Super PACs. Look in the Independent Expenditures tab in the page you gave me.
- rhino369 11y ago
  Hating democracy is a massive overstatement. It was designed as a democratically elected representative republic. They didn't want a mob ruling, but at the base, the people select the representatives. That is how virtually every democracy runs itself.
mikeash 11y ago
Most of those elections, at least in the US, are arranged to be a choice between two bad candidates with relatively small (even if sometimes important) differences. That's not a real choice and the fact that one of them won shouldn't be construed as approval.
- MarcusVorenus 11y ago
  There are primaries and third parties, you know? That the final choice comes down to two mediocre individuals says more about the intelligence of the average voter than any sort of corporate conspiracy. I'll give you though that the first-past-the-post system is terrible and you would be better off with a proportional system.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Third parties do nothing useful. Primaries could be useful, but in practice aren't. And sure, maybe it's voter intelligence or apathy rather than some conspiracy. Doesn't matter. I'm just saying the result isn't representative and shouldn't be framed as the will of the people. I'm not saying anything about the root cause.
    - MarcusVorenus 11y ago
      > I'm just saying the result isn't representative and shouldn't be framed as the will of the people. Fine, but then you can't really frame anything as being or not the will of the people as there's no point of reference. You can't say that TTIP and TPP and TISA are not the will of the people just because Reddit and a bunch of news sites like to hate on them, for instance.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        Sure you can. You can go see what people actually want and see how it lines up with the actions of their elected officials. Often the two do line up. Sometimes they don't. The fact that these officials were elected doesn't automatically indicate either way.
squeeze 11y ago
I believe in democracy.
- cies 11y ago
  Me too! That's why I lament the fact that it is not (maybe even quite opposite). I think we should try it, like trias-politica and all, by trying to keep our legislative leg free from non-democratic influences. Like those mehhhh lobby organisations.
task_queue 11y ago
Elections don't make a democracy. They had elections in Your Favorite Totalitarian State, too.

calibraxis 11y ago

That's not democracy. That's doublespeak. The US's "Founding Fathers" hated democracy and stressed it was a republic. Those slaveowners wanted to protect minorities against majority rule — the wealthy minority. (Obviously they didn't mean African Americans and women.) Later politicians coopted the term "democracy", as marketing. One source to learn more is Graeber's "The Democracy Project". (http://lareviewofbooks.org/review/democracy-what-is-it-good-for-david-graeber-and-gar-alperovitz http://lareviewofbooks.org/review/democracy-what-is-it-good-...) Pushing a button every few years for your new corporate-sponsored king isn't meaningful democratic participation.

MarcusVorenus 11y ago
Obama is a union-sponsored king actually, so it's all good I guess.
- lumberjack 11y ago
  Neither Obama nor Clinton are sponsored by unions. Their major sponsors are Wall St, universities, SV and Hollywood, i.e. typical wealthy democrats. http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 http://www.opensecrets.org/PRES08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638 Maybe you were thinking about Bernie Sanders?
  - MarcusVorenus 11y ago
    Unions don't donate directly, they make independent campaign expenditures through Super PACs. Look in the Independent Expenditures tab in the page you gave me.
rhino369 11y ago
Hating democracy is a massive overstatement. It was designed as a democratically elected representative republic. They didn't want a mob ruling, but at the base, the people select the representatives. That is how virtually every democracy runs itself.

mikeash 11y ago

Most of those elections, at least in the US, are arranged to be a choice between two bad candidates with relatively small (even if sometimes important) differences. That's not a real choice and the fact that one of them won shouldn't be construed as approval.

MarcusVorenus 11y ago
There are primaries and third parties, you know? That the final choice comes down to two mediocre individuals says more about the intelligence of the average voter than any sort of corporate conspiracy. I'll give you though that the first-past-the-post system is terrible and you would be better off with a proportional system.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Third parties do nothing useful. Primaries could be useful, but in practice aren't. And sure, maybe it's voter intelligence or apathy rather than some conspiracy. Doesn't matter. I'm just saying the result isn't representative and shouldn't be framed as the will of the people. I'm not saying anything about the root cause.
  - MarcusVorenus 11y ago
    > I'm just saying the result isn't representative and shouldn't be framed as the will of the people. Fine, but then you can't really frame anything as being or not the will of the people as there's no point of reference. You can't say that TTIP and TPP and TISA are not the will of the people just because Reddit and a bunch of news sites like to hate on them, for instance.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      Sure you can. You can go see what people actually want and see how it lines up with the actions of their elected officials. Often the two do line up. Sometimes they don't. The fact that these officials were elected doesn't automatically indicate either way.

squeeze 11y ago

I believe in democracy.

cies 11y ago
Me too! That's why I lament the fact that it is not (maybe even quite opposite). I think we should try it, like trias-politica and all, by trying to keep our legislative leg free from non-democratic influences. Like those mehhhh lobby organisations.

task_queue 11y ago

Elections don't make a democracy. They had elections in Your Favorite Totalitarian State, too.