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""[Google]'s Section 102(b) argument also suffers from a broader flaw." (this sentence transitions from the Administration's rejection of Google's suggestion th

""[Google]'s Section 102(b) argument also suffers from a broader flaw." (this sentence transitions from the Administration's rejection of Google's suggestion that declaring code is inherently more functional and less expressive than implementing code to the DoJ's agreement with Oracle's lawyers on the purpose of Section 102(b))" That Google would be in the right by copying the declaring code of 27(!) different namespaces is nothing but crazy. http://www.fosspatents.com/2015/05/us-dept-of-justice-finds-googles.html http://www.fosspatents.com/2015/05/us-dept-of-justice-finds-...

mikecmpbll 11y ago
That FOSS Patents piece is the best commentary I've seen on the subject, thanks for bringing to my attention.
- ChairmanZach 11y ago
  Finding non-shill opinions on this whole issue is quite hard. Once you check the facts of the case it's really quite open-and-shut in Oracle's favor.
  - cromwellian 11y ago
    Says the account that seems to have been specifically created to shill on this issue.
- simplifier 11y ago
  Ah, Florian Mueller, a paid Oracle shill.
  - mikecmpbll 11y ago
    I don't care how involved he is in the case, I read his writing and I found it to be illuminating -- far more so than anything else I'd read on the subject. You can happily take the opposing view simply because he is involved and is probably biased, but that will make your viewpoint almost entirely baseless.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      Mueller has a history of doing an excellent job working things that aren't actually reasonable to informed parties that seem illuminating to people that aren't informed. It's actually a fairly key skill for a professional propagandist. I haven't actually read the piece on question here, but appearing illuminating and actually being deceptive propaganda are not mutually exclusive traits.
      - mikecmpbll 11y ago
        if that's the case, it's the job of the 'informed' guys to write similarly illuminating counter-arguments, because I've not found any yet.
        dragonwriter 11y ago
        The illusion of illumination is greatly enhanced by having a strong guiding narrative, which is easy with propaganda, harder with reality.
        mikecmpbll 11y ago
        You cannot cry propaganda without providing some evidence as to what is misleading or factually incorrect, because otherwise anyone can say anything is propaganda.
        simplifier 11y ago
        Techdirt's take: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150526/16550931121/obama-administration-files-totally-clueless-argument-concerning-software-copyrights-supreme-court-case.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150526/16550931121/obama...
Oletros 11y ago
So, reimplementing API's is crazy? Should Microsoft sue wine developers? Should Amazon sue anyone making a compatible EC2 API?
- ChairmanZach 11y ago
  The .NET standard libraries are part of the CLI which is a part of ISO/IEC 23271:2012, a standard. I have no idea when it comes to the EC2 API. Should it be legal for me to copy all of the declaring code of my employers product and after writing my own implementation selling it as my own product/work under a different name?
  - dmm 11y ago
    Wine reimplements win32 and directx, etc, ot the .Net api.
    - ChairmanZach 11y ago
      Wine is a reverse engineering of the APIs, not a blatant copy. edit: Straight from Wikipedia: "Wine is predominantly written using black-box testing reverse-engineering, to avoid copyright issues.[4] [4] https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?p=37364#37364 https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?p=37364#37364 "
      - Oletros 11y ago
        Can you explain us the difrerence between reverse enginerring Long _HTCTI(int param1) and Long _HTCTI(int WindowPosition) ? An API is an API and it will be the same if it is reverse engineered or copied the declaration. And Google didn't copied without permission Sun's code, they used Apache Harmony
      - Zigurd 11y ago
        Incorrect. Wine is based on Windows documentation of Windows APIs. There is no practical way to "discover" an API.
      - 11y ago
andrewmu 11y ago
From Florian Miller's bio on that page: "He is now developing a game app for smartphones and tablet computers." I wonder if that includes Android.

mikecmpbll 11y ago

That FOSS Patents piece is the best commentary I've seen on the subject, thanks for bringing to my attention.

ChairmanZach 11y ago
Finding non-shill opinions on this whole issue is quite hard. Once you check the facts of the case it's really quite open-and-shut in Oracle's favor.
- cromwellian 11y ago
  Says the account that seems to have been specifically created to shill on this issue.
simplifier 11y ago
Ah, Florian Mueller, a paid Oracle shill.
- mikecmpbll 11y ago
  I don't care how involved he is in the case, I read his writing and I found it to be illuminating -- far more so than anything else I'd read on the subject. You can happily take the opposing view simply because he is involved and is probably biased, but that will make your viewpoint almost entirely baseless.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Mueller has a history of doing an excellent job working things that aren't actually reasonable to informed parties that seem illuminating to people that aren't informed. It's actually a fairly key skill for a professional propagandist. I haven't actually read the piece on question here, but appearing illuminating and actually being deceptive propaganda are not mutually exclusive traits.
    - mikecmpbll 11y ago
      if that's the case, it's the job of the 'informed' guys to write similarly illuminating counter-arguments, because I've not found any yet.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        The illusion of illumination is greatly enhanced by having a strong guiding narrative, which is easy with propaganda, harder with reality.
        mikecmpbll 11y ago
        You cannot cry propaganda without providing some evidence as to what is misleading or factually incorrect, because otherwise anyone can say anything is propaganda.
      - simplifier 11y ago
        Techdirt's take: https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150526/16550931121/obama-administration-files-totally-clueless-argument-concerning-software-copyrights-supreme-court-case.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150526/16550931121/obama...

Oletros 11y ago

So, reimplementing API's is crazy? Should Microsoft sue wine developers? Should Amazon sue anyone making a compatible EC2 API?

ChairmanZach 11y ago
The .NET standard libraries are part of the CLI which is a part of ISO/IEC 23271:2012, a standard. I have no idea when it comes to the EC2 API. Should it be legal for me to copy all of the declaring code of my employers product and after writing my own implementation selling it as my own product/work under a different name?
- dmm 11y ago
  Wine reimplements win32 and directx, etc, ot the .Net api.
  - ChairmanZach 11y ago
    Wine is a reverse engineering of the APIs, not a blatant copy. edit: Straight from Wikipedia: "Wine is predominantly written using black-box testing reverse-engineering, to avoid copyright issues.[4] [4] https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?p=37364#37364 https://forum.winehq.org/viewtopic.php?p=37364#37364 "
    - Oletros 11y ago
      Can you explain us the difrerence between reverse enginerring Long _HTCTI(int param1) and Long _HTCTI(int WindowPosition) ? An API is an API and it will be the same if it is reverse engineered or copied the declaration. And Google didn't copied without permission Sun's code, they used Apache Harmony
    - Zigurd 11y ago
      Incorrect. Wine is based on Windows documentation of Windows APIs. There is no practical way to "discover" an API.
    - 11y ago

andrewmu 11y ago

From Florian Miller's bio on that page: "He is now developing a game app for smartphones and tablet computers." I wonder if that includes Android.