8 ms·

and then quietly renamed Treaty of Lisbon and ratified.

ginko 11y ago
The EU constitution would have been an entirely different thing. It would have made the EU a lot more democratic, adding a directly elected president, for instance.
- Brakenshire 11y ago
  The EU now has a directly elected President in all but name, through the Spitzenkandidaten system. Legally, its supposed to be a joint decision of the Council and the Parliament, but when Cameron tried to object to Juncker, it seemed to be pretty clear that the new expectation is that the Council rubber-stamps Parliament's decision, and Parliament will support the party receiving the largest number of votes.
  - yxhuvud 11y ago
    All but name? How the heck is some guy that I never got an option to vote for in any way whatsoever directly elected? You might as well claim that the Council is directly elected, and not the total lack of accountability to citizens that it actually is.
    - ginko 11y ago
      You indirectly voted in the EP election. Well, I hope you did. Otherwise you don't have any right to complain.
      - abloodywar 11y ago
        How can you even say that you forfeit your rights to complain if someone supposedly didn't vote? What if every choice is a bad choice? Would you be required to support something you don't approve of - simply to be allowed to voice your opinion?
        saint_fiasco 11y ago
        You can go vote and write in 'Lady Gaga' or something. The important part is that you getup and go "vote", to signal that you care. Otherwise, politicians won't be able to tell whether you are dissatisfied or just uninterested. If you are explicitly dissatisfied, they might try to do something to get your vote. Hopefully by enacting good policy.
      - wsc981 11y ago
        George Carlin had another perspective: "If you vote, you have no right to complain": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk&feature=youtu.be&t=125 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk&feature=youtu.be...
        alextgordon 11y ago
        I voted Green, then I found they want to shut down ITER. Bastards! Should have stayed home.
      - yxhuvud 11y ago
        An indirect vote is not "the same thing except in name" as a direct vote.
    - munchhausen 11y ago
      A president elected by the parliament used to be a pretty common thing in many European countries. It's simply a different model. Keep in mind that in virtually all European countries, the office of the president is not particularly powerful. The government/parliament combo is where the power is - the president is in many countries little more than a guy/gal opening new motorways and representing the country at international summits (but foreign policy is crafted by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs equivalent). The "election by parliament" model has been/is now being phased out in favor of direct presidential elections in many countries, but let's not pretend like we're dealing with something particularly unusual here.

ginko 11y ago

The EU constitution would have been an entirely different thing. It would have made the EU a lot more democratic, adding a directly elected president, for instance.

Brakenshire 11y ago
The EU now has a directly elected President in all but name, through the Spitzenkandidaten system. Legally, its supposed to be a joint decision of the Council and the Parliament, but when Cameron tried to object to Juncker, it seemed to be pretty clear that the new expectation is that the Council rubber-stamps Parliament's decision, and Parliament will support the party receiving the largest number of votes.
- yxhuvud 11y ago
  All but name? How the heck is some guy that I never got an option to vote for in any way whatsoever directly elected? You might as well claim that the Council is directly elected, and not the total lack of accountability to citizens that it actually is.
  - ginko 11y ago
    You indirectly voted in the EP election. Well, I hope you did. Otherwise you don't have any right to complain.
    - abloodywar 11y ago
      How can you even say that you forfeit your rights to complain if someone supposedly didn't vote? What if every choice is a bad choice? Would you be required to support something you don't approve of - simply to be allowed to voice your opinion?
      - saint_fiasco 11y ago
        You can go vote and write in 'Lady Gaga' or something. The important part is that you getup and go "vote", to signal that you care. Otherwise, politicians won't be able to tell whether you are dissatisfied or just uninterested. If you are explicitly dissatisfied, they might try to do something to get your vote. Hopefully by enacting good policy.
    - wsc981 11y ago
      George Carlin had another perspective: "If you vote, you have no right to complain": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk&feature=youtu.be&t=125 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk&feature=youtu.be...
      - alextgordon 11y ago
        I voted Green, then I found they want to shut down ITER. Bastards! Should have stayed home.
    - yxhuvud 11y ago
      An indirect vote is not "the same thing except in name" as a direct vote.
  - munchhausen 11y ago
    A president elected by the parliament used to be a pretty common thing in many European countries. It's simply a different model. Keep in mind that in virtually all European countries, the office of the president is not particularly powerful. The government/parliament combo is where the power is - the president is in many countries little more than a guy/gal opening new motorways and representing the country at international summits (but foreign policy is crafted by the Secretary of Foreign Affairs equivalent). The "election by parliament" model has been/is now being phased out in favor of direct presidential elections in many countries, but let's not pretend like we're dealing with something particularly unusual here.