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Well, I for one would be genuinely interested in how someone working in a field that I personally (and many with me) do find morally reprehensive (whether it be

Well, I for one would be genuinely interested in how someone working in a field that I personally (and many with me) do find morally reprehensive (whether it be gambling, drugs, weapons, fossile fuels...) think about their role in the big picture. Do they have good arguments that I fail to see, do they not care/think too much about it, does the salary/benefits trumph any moral qualm, do they not have any other choice, etc. If you don't want to discuss it, that is fine, just pointing out that the original poster's question might not be fully rhetorical.

n72 11y ago
Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but the tone seemed a bit over the top. E.g. I could have been something like "Given that you worked in a morally questionable field, does this weigh on your mind, and if not, why not?" Some very random thoughts and (sorry to yell but I know someone is going to tell me how one of these doesn't justify things but...) NONE OF THESE ARE MEANT TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING: 1. I am just a dev and had never been to a casino in my life prior to developing the game. I just took the job since I wanted to go the high risk/hard reward route. I am fully cognizant of the "I was just the accountant at Auschwitz" counter argument. I just developed the thing and had fun, frustration, and huge amounts of stress learning about things like high concurrency and such. 2. I am guilty of compartmentalizing and avoid thinking about the effects. 3. I was under the understanding that for a a while at least we were cutting people off when they spent over a certain amount. I assume at some point we stopped doing this, but avoided asking when. 4. Due to political reasons, I was sidelined and didn't have any decision making clout. I was just a dev once we grew to a certain point. 5. I'm fairly far to the left politically, but found some of the more libertarian arguments persuasive in terms of adults are adults and should be able to smoke weed, drink beer, and play slots if they want to. 6. I tell myself that with the money earned, I can now do good things for the world and any projects I do from now on will be non-profitish. I have yet to do anything of the sort. 7. It was all very gradual. If an existing casino company had tried to hire me, I would likely have not worked for them. We started off with multiplayer games like Blackjack and Roulette and the focus was on social really more than casino. It's the kind of lobster boiling problem: Since it was so gradual, it was tough to see if/when a line was crossed. 8. Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction?
- Klapaucius 11y ago
  Hi, I didn't really expect an answer, so thank you for giving one anyway. From what you write, I get the impression that could be described as a "slippery slope" kind of situation, which I can understand. I don't know how I'd behave myself given those circumstances, although I'd of course like to think I'd resist somehow - but perhaps I'm fooling myself. And you are right that there are a lot of industries of questionable/negative moral worth out there (I listed a few of my picking in my previous comment, but you could add certain parts of banking/finance industry, tobacco industry and many others..) I guess what amazes me is the number of people willing to sacrifice their limited time on this planet to actively work on stuff that is (if one is being honest with oneself) providing net negative value to society as a whole, making this world a shittier place for everyone. (Saying this as a relatively non-religious person).
- smitherfield 11y ago
  >Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction? Well, casinos make their money by financially immiserating their customers, while J.P. Morgan is almost directly the opposite - they want to make all their clients wealthier. And (some extreme individual cases perhaps excepted), nobody ever ruined their life because of "caffeine addiction" (a somewhat dubious concept). That said, I do subscribe to the "live and let live" position on the matter, and I don't think people should be criticized for working for a gambling business (or tobacco, alcohol, freemium mobile games, or other businesses in the same realm).
- killface 11y ago
  You don't have anything to feel guilty about. Every company is out there to make money. None of us, individually, are as cruel as a group of people making a consensus decision. My first job was writing code for a company that took advantage of poor and desperate people. I didn't see that for a few years. But, it was a good veneer -- help people who wanted to go to school to improve their lot in life. I genuinely thought I was doing something good. But these for-profit schools ended up abusing government regulations and guarantees around student loans, which has largely led to the student loan crisis. However, I thought that I was buying stuff in my community, it bought my family a house and a reliable car, and we were paying a lot of taxes. Every company has some variation on this. Starbucks has been great for coffee growers around the world and has exposed many people to boutique/single-origin coffee, but like you said, it's built on addiction. But any restaurant is doing the same -- they're doing whatever they can to bring you in and have you pay money for food. I mean, you have to eat, right? And restaurants are all about flavor and presentation and unique ingredients -- they're triggering your dopamine, which they hope will entice the diner to spend more money. Car salesmen are the same way -- everybody kinda needs a car, but they try to take advantage of our lack of information, and try to cover it with dopamine-based ideas: smooth leather, new car smell, perfect paintjob, fast car, get a bunch of chicks, people will really know you've done well in life, etc. Everything in live is built on dopamine though -- it's why we do anything. To reduce it to dopamine trigger = bad for humanity is not fair.
tomjen3 11y ago
I work for a company that makes online and runs online slots. It is likely true that some people discover that they have an addiction and blow a fortune, probably on slots that I made. Thing is I know that a lot of our customers really, really love it, because we spend a lot of time making the games really great and fun to play. They know that at the end of the day they lose money, but the same is the case for going to the movies (cost of tickets + drinks), a theme park, etc.

n72 11y ago

Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but the tone seemed a bit over the top. E.g. I could have been something like "Given that you worked in a morally questionable field, does this weigh on your mind, and if not, why not?" Some very random thoughts and (sorry to yell but I know someone is going to tell me how one of these doesn't justify things but...) NONE OF THESE ARE MEANT TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING: 1. I am just a dev and had never been to a casino in my life prior to developing the game. I just took the job since I wanted to go the high risk/hard reward route. I am fully cognizant of the "I was just the accountant at Auschwitz" counter argument. I just developed the thing and had fun, frustration, and huge amounts of stress learning about things like high concurrency and such. 2. I am guilty of compartmentalizing and avoid thinking about the effects. 3. I was under the understanding that for a a while at least we were cutting people off when they spent over a certain amount. I assume at some point we stopped doing this, but avoided asking when. 4. Due to political reasons, I was sidelined and didn't have any decision making clout. I was just a dev once we grew to a certain point. 5. I'm fairly far to the left politically, but found some of the more libertarian arguments persuasive in terms of adults are adults and should be able to smoke weed, drink beer, and play slots if they want to. 6. I tell myself that with the money earned, I can now do good things for the world and any projects I do from now on will be non-profitish. I have yet to do anything of the sort. 7. It was all very gradual. If an existing casino company had tried to hire me, I would likely have not worked for them. We started off with multiplayer games like Blackjack and Roulette and the focus was on social really more than casino. It's the kind of lobster boiling problem: Since it was so gradual, it was tough to see if/when a line was crossed. 8. Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction?

Klapaucius 11y ago
Hi, I didn't really expect an answer, so thank you for giving one anyway. From what you write, I get the impression that could be described as a "slippery slope" kind of situation, which I can understand. I don't know how I'd behave myself given those circumstances, although I'd of course like to think I'd resist somehow - but perhaps I'm fooling myself. And you are right that there are a lot of industries of questionable/negative moral worth out there (I listed a few of my picking in my previous comment, but you could add certain parts of banking/finance industry, tobacco industry and many others..) I guess what amazes me is the number of people willing to sacrifice their limited time on this planet to actively work on stuff that is (if one is being honest with oneself) providing net negative value to society as a whole, making this world a shittier place for everyone. (Saying this as a relatively non-religious person).
smitherfield 11y ago
>Casino has a particularly bad reputation. Is working for J.P. Morgan any better? What about Starbucks, which has basically built their empire on a caffeine addiction? Well, casinos make their money by financially immiserating their customers, while J.P. Morgan is almost directly the opposite - they want to make all their clients wealthier. And (some extreme individual cases perhaps excepted), nobody ever ruined their life because of "caffeine addiction" (a somewhat dubious concept). That said, I do subscribe to the "live and let live" position on the matter, and I don't think people should be criticized for working for a gambling business (or tobacco, alcohol, freemium mobile games, or other businesses in the same realm).
killface 11y ago
You don't have anything to feel guilty about. Every company is out there to make money. None of us, individually, are as cruel as a group of people making a consensus decision. My first job was writing code for a company that took advantage of poor and desperate people. I didn't see that for a few years. But, it was a good veneer -- help people who wanted to go to school to improve their lot in life. I genuinely thought I was doing something good. But these for-profit schools ended up abusing government regulations and guarantees around student loans, which has largely led to the student loan crisis. However, I thought that I was buying stuff in my community, it bought my family a house and a reliable car, and we were paying a lot of taxes. Every company has some variation on this. Starbucks has been great for coffee growers around the world and has exposed many people to boutique/single-origin coffee, but like you said, it's built on addiction. But any restaurant is doing the same -- they're doing whatever they can to bring you in and have you pay money for food. I mean, you have to eat, right? And restaurants are all about flavor and presentation and unique ingredients -- they're triggering your dopamine, which they hope will entice the diner to spend more money. Car salesmen are the same way -- everybody kinda needs a car, but they try to take advantage of our lack of information, and try to cover it with dopamine-based ideas: smooth leather, new car smell, perfect paintjob, fast car, get a bunch of chicks, people will really know you've done well in life, etc. Everything in live is built on dopamine though -- it's why we do anything. To reduce it to dopamine trigger = bad for humanity is not fair.

tomjen3 11y ago

I work for a company that makes online and runs online slots. It is likely true that some people discover that they have an addiction and blow a fortune, probably on slots that I made. Thing is I know that a lot of our customers really, really love it, because we spend a lot of time making the games really great and fun to play. They know that at the end of the day they lose money, but the same is the case for going to the movies (cost of tickets + drinks), a theme park, etc.