5 ms·

a quick google search shows you several countries that have no income tax. So sorry, you never researched your own argument.

itistoday2 11y ago
http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.
- Frondo 11y ago
  It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.
  - itistoday2 11y ago
    > Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price. That is completely different from how taxes work in the United States. An appropriate analogy would be being born in a restaurant and being forced to pay money for what you have no idea and no say in. There is no menu. What's given to you is chosen by people you don't know and who you've never had a single conversation with. And btw, you can't just "get up and leave" the restaurant either. When the analogy is this incompatible, you can compare anything to anything else and declare that bananas are just like soap. If you can't see the difference, you are deluding yourself.
    - Frondo 11y ago
      Again, your parents made the decision for your citizenship when you were a child and they had custody of you. As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. You keep telling me how: 1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship, And so on. None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that wherever you go, you'll have to make a compromise. Being forced to make a compromise elsewhere does not mean that taxation here is theft. None of your claims support the false assertion that "taxation is theft". I really don't understand what part of this you're missing. I really don't get what part of this plain language is in dispute.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
      - itistoday2 11y ago
        > As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. To revoke consent I would have had to have been of a mind to have given it in the first place. My parents payed taxes when I was a child. I did not. I then grew into a situation where I had to make money to stay off the streets and was forced to pay this government. Maybe this isn't so black and white. I would be willing to agree that your point of view carries more weight the longer I stay here in a capacity where I am capable of moving to another country. However, it starts out as theft and remains so until I have no excuse remaining for not leaving, and then it's only if there is a fair alternative available. If there's some country out there that doesn't have an income tax but rapes its citizens 12 hours out of the day, that can't be counted as a fair alternative. It would still be extortion then ("pay us or get raped!").

itistoday2 11y ago

http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countries-income-tax/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/2013/11/24/top-5-livable-countrie... Of the most "livable" countries: - United Arab Emirates: don't want to live in the middle east, no thanks. I disagree with many of the laws there and have no close family or friends anywhere nearby. - Bahamas: gotta buy land there or pay an annual fee. This is probably the most reasonable of all options, but my work precludes me from living there. - Bermuda: One of the world's most expensive places to live. Possible if I could afford it (can't at the moment). - Andorra: would be awesome. Not sure what the situation is with living there as a non-citizen (it takes 20 years to become one). Since one has to be a citizen of some country one wouldn't be able to renounce their US citizenship for 20 years (at least) and therefore would still have to pay income taxes to the United States. - Monaco: "Getting a residence permit practically requires millionaire status." I think ebrenes framed the situation well: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9540888 Copied here: ~~~~ While you can theoretically leave the U.S. whenever you want, you cannot stop paying taxes whenever you want. You have to renounce citizenship, pay a fine for renouncing said citizenship to avoid paying taxes and possibly be audited. And you might argue that's fine, because they should be able to collect back taxes but you'll generally have to pay taxes for the next 10 years. ~~~~ 10 years, 20 years, whatever. None of this changes the fact that what is being done in the United States is theft, plain and simple. The government never came to me and asked if I agreed to any of these income taxes, they just say pay up or we'll ruin your life. No negotiation, no agreed upon exchange for goods or services, just extortion.

Frondo 11y ago
It is not theft. You listed several countries you could move to. The fact that you don't want to move to any of them, for whatever reason, does not turn US taxation into "theft". And again, you agree to pay them by continuing to live here. Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. Don't like it? Go to another restaurant.
- itistoday2 11y ago
  > Just like, when you sit down at a restaurant and order a meal, you're agreeing to pay for it without negotiation, without a specific contract outlining specifications for the food, etc. There is a verbal agreement (contract) outlining the specifications of the food. It says "pancakes" in the menu, it shows me the price, and I choose to order the pancakes for that stated price. That is completely different from how taxes work in the United States. An appropriate analogy would be being born in a restaurant and being forced to pay money for what you have no idea and no say in. There is no menu. What's given to you is chosen by people you don't know and who you've never had a single conversation with. And btw, you can't just "get up and leave" the restaurant either. When the analogy is this incompatible, you can compare anything to anything else and declare that bananas are just like soap. If you can't see the difference, you are deluding yourself.
  - Frondo 11y ago
    Again, your parents made the decision for your citizenship when you were a child and they had custody of you. As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. You keep telling me how: 1) Other countries don't offer what you want, 2) It's expensive to move to another country, 3) Many countries won't grant you citizenship, And so on. None of those mean that you can't leave and go somewhere else. They just mean that wherever you go, you'll have to make a compromise. Being forced to make a compromise elsewhere does not mean that taxation here is theft. None of your claims support the false assertion that "taxation is theft". I really don't understand what part of this you're missing. I really don't get what part of this plain language is in dispute.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - itistoday2 11y ago
      > As an adult, you can revoke your consent and leave. To revoke consent I would have had to have been of a mind to have given it in the first place. My parents payed taxes when I was a child. I did not. I then grew into a situation where I had to make money to stay off the streets and was forced to pay this government. Maybe this isn't so black and white. I would be willing to agree that your point of view carries more weight the longer I stay here in a capacity where I am capable of moving to another country. However, it starts out as theft and remains so until I have no excuse remaining for not leaving, and then it's only if there is a fair alternative available. If there's some country out there that doesn't have an income tax but rapes its citizens 12 hours out of the day, that can't be counted as a fair alternative. It would still be extortion then ("pay us or get raped!").