5 ms·

People don't get that when you make college free, you also take away a lot of the choice that goes into college. German colleges are free but the kids who are c

• random_coder 11y ago
  German colleges are free but the kids who are chosen to go to them are often selected by the third grade. Could you explain more?
  • raverbashing 11y ago
    Not sure about the details of the German system In France tuition in Public universities is free Of course it depends on your scores on the Bac and on the Prep school that follows it (to get ready for the exams) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baccalaur%C3%A9at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_pr%C3%A9paratoire_aux_grandes_%C3%A9coles http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_pr%C3%A9paratoire_aux_gr...
    • masklinn 11y ago
      Prep schools are not for university, they're for "great schools" which is a separate system and pretty much unique to the country. Neither prep schools nor the bac are relevant to universities (outside of having the bac), universities are free-ish and anyone can attend (at least the first year, there's no entrance test)
      • S4M 11y ago
        Prep schools in France can be damn selective as well. And prep schools tend to have contracts with universities so drop out from prep schools can be admitted to universities (they might or might not have to pass an exam for that). Prep schools are somewhat equivalent to the first two years of university, with a bit of literature/philosophy and foreign language classes, but prep schools are much intense and exams are harder (disclaimer: I did prep school and a "Grande Ecole", and and also have an Msc from a University).
  • goodells 11y ago
    The German school system divides students into three distinct groups starting in the fourth grade, meaning the decision is made in the third [1]. The three divisions are 1. Hauptschule (central, lower-level school) 2. Realschule (technical school) and 3. Gymnasium (uni-prep school). Once placed into one of these three tracks, it's very difficult to switch between them - more so in the later years, since they each have a different number of years required in order to graduate. Over the past few years, the system has been changing to allow parents greater say in their children's future, resulting in the same mixups that happen in the United States when parents can override course placement decisions. I can go into more detail on this if anyone wants. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Secondary_education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Secondary_...
    • jkot 11y ago
      Czech have similar system. It is easy to get into technical university if you know some math. Real hard are humanities, some art schools take perhaps 0.5% of applicants.
      • derefr 11y ago
        Wow, 0.5%! What does the market for Czech art-school graduates look like? Is there more demand than supply?
        • jkot 11y ago
          Not sure about market. Most musicians and painters I know are self educated and have daily job. University does not have monopoly, one can always pay for private university (which is not that expensive). But state university is highly selective and most prestigious. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Performing_Arts_in_Prague https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Performing_Arts_in_...
        • DieBuche 11y ago
          acceptance rates of around 1% are common for german art schools as well
• legulere 11y ago
  It's just a few programmes like med where people get selected strongly. Even there you can get in if you're okay with waiting for a few years. Usually you just register at the university and begin studying there.
• msvalkon 11y ago
  This is a very generalizing argument. Universities are free (paid by taxes obviously) in Finland, but there is no such thing like what you describe. In here the only prerequisite is that you have finished high school, then you can take the entry exams.. It's also not uncommon for someone to go into a university later in their life. My cs courses had a good bunch of people in their fifties re-educating themselves.
  • hk__2 11y ago
    In France you don’t even have any entry exams for universities.
    • jkot 11y ago
      And what is drop out rate in first semester?
      • agumonkey 11y ago
        It's incredibly bad. ~40% after first semester. 60%+ will fail the first year. That first year is basically a post high-school buffer. Netherlands have a one year gap for kids to cool off and find what motivates them. France should really adopt that.
        • roel_v 11y ago
          "Netherlands have a one year gap for kids to cool off and find what motivates them." What? No we don't.
          • vram22 11y ago
            He's probably confusing what he said with students taking a gap year between high school and college.
            • roel_v 11y ago
• philippnagel 11y ago
  Well, it is not that selective. According to the "Bildungsbericht 2014" 50% of all persons eligible to enter tertiary education do so [0]. In 2013 51.7% of people in the relevant age groups (18 - 21) were eligible for enrollment in a tertiary education program [1]. These are just some quickly researched numbers. Feel free to criticize! On a personal note: I am a german student and trust me, even at institutions regarded to be high-tier (e.g. LMU Munich), you will find lots of people that should have rather entered an apprenticeship for example. [0]: http://www.bildungsbericht.de/daten2014/wichtige_ergebnisse_web2014.pdf http://www.bildungsbericht.de/daten2014/wichtige_ergebnisse_... (in german) [1]: http://www.datenportal.bmbf.de/portal/de/Tabelle-2.5.85.html http://www.datenportal.bmbf.de/portal/de/Tabelle-2.5.85.html
  • rhino369 11y ago
    25% going to college seems low. In America 63% of people have done some college, higher among those who are younger.
    • germanier 11y ago
      You have to keep in mind that Germany has strong apprenticeship programs which include practical on-the-job training half of the time and vocational school the other half. Those are not included in the numbers above.
      • nmrm2 11y ago
        The 60ish percent number almost definitely includes community college ("2 year") degrees, which German apprenticeships mirror. The percentage of Americans with a bachelors degree is closer to 28 percent.
    • HarryHirsch 11y ago
      Americans take it for granted that the level of education at American colleges is extremely variable. Cornell is called "college" but Tumbleweed State Technical College is called college, too. The education one would get out of university in Germany is equivalent to a top-25 college in the US. On that front, the Germans are doing rather well. How many Americans have a degree from a top-25 institution?
• iamcurious 11y ago
  Not in Uruguay. Anyone can go into college without any entry exam nor grades taken into account. Also, there are private universities for those who prefer them.
• mvaliente2001 11y ago
  In Venezuela, there are free colleges run by the government and private for-profit colleges. In the last year of high-school you present a test equivalent of US's SAT, and the result is averaged with your high school notes. You fill a form with three options of profession-college, and according to your score, you're selected. But the curious thing is that most public colleges are good, and most private colleges are bad. There are few private colleges that worry for academic excellence, but most are for profit. They sell degrees to people who can't get it on the public system. Students unable to get good scores has no other chance. Lazy rich kids who are not interested in studying, go to private colleges, basically, to buy a "title". Professor in private institutions are under constant pressure to pass students, while in public colleges they are free to evaluate according to their criteria (and I know a few professors that work both in public and private colleges). A friend from India told me that the situation there is similar. I think that here there are profound differences with US and Central Europe colleges, where private institutions have a reputation to keep. So, I can only say: good for you, Chile! That was the result of years of students' protests. I'm happy they have what we have and what England once had.
• kazinator 11y ago
  If college is free, then admission is strictly on academic grounds. There is nothing wrong with that: in fact, it is ideally the way it should be. If you examine it honestly, you will see that your argument boils down to, "though I'm not rich, and certainly cannot afford private university, I do have some money and that should give me an advantage over applicants who are better qualified, but poorer." By the way, even if tuition is free (and even if supplies like books are), there is really no such thing as absolutely free. You have to live somewhere, clothe yourself and eat. There will still be those who don't have time to go to school because they have to struggle to eke out a living. Free universities are still difficult for the poor because to make the cut, you have to work hard and that requires support. In the world, having more money than someone else will almost always given you an advantage in one way or another.
  • the_af 11y ago
    Exactly. You nailed it. Free universities have indeed this "hidden" fee in my country. Everyone knows that if you are well-off, you'll do better even in our public universities. A lot of poor people simply cannot keep up with working and studying at the same time. This isn't an argument against public education, but it's evidence that it's not enough. People should be able to take better advantage of this free education.
• the_af 11y ago
  Sorry, this isn't true in Argentina either (someone already mentioned it's not true in Uruguay). We have excellent public and free university. Some of its faculties are very demanding, some are bogged down by endless red tape, but the education level is pretty good (according to who you ask, ranked among the best in South America). And everyone can get into university, no grades from high school requirements. The "hidden" fee is that university can be pretty demanding, and if you're poor and have to work to support yourself or your family, it's exhausting and very hard to keep up with your studies; this causes many students to drop out. Here in Argentina there are plenty of private universities to choose if you wish, some cheap, some expensive. Everyone who's honest acknowledges public university has the better quality (with a few exceptions), but some people just can't have a job and afford the time/dedication public education takes, so they pick a private university with lower dedication demands. And that's a perfectly acceptable choice.
  • jfroma 11y ago
    I'm from Argentina (Córdoba) and this is very accurate. I dislike a lot of things in my country but if there is something to be proud of is the universal access to education for everyone and the quality. There are a lot of things to improve, IMHO some of the plans are a bit outdated and teachers get a low salary.
• NorthGuy11 11y ago
  You can have free college without the stupid German segregation system.
• Jdam 11y ago
  "kids who are chosen to go to them are often selected by the third grade." Not really. I had a friend during elementary school and he was advised to go to the Hauptschule (lowest middle school). Right now he is pursuing a PhD program at one of the "elite" german engineering schools. "Wer will, der kann" (more or less "You can if you want to")