5 ms·

I always viewed the cause for slow IPv6 adoption as a lack of incentive - while IPv4 addresses are effectively free then where is the ROI in building an IPv6 in

by gardarh 11y ago

I always viewed the cause for slow IPv6 adoption as a lack of incentive - while IPv4 addresses are effectively free then where is the ROI in building an IPv6 infrastructure? I guess that when IPv4 addresses are traded in a free market it is easier to realise the cost of not adopting IPv6, eventually leading to a faster adoption (which is a good thing for everyone, NAT is essentially making the internet a lot less cooler place than it could be). Also, what would the alternative be? Just not handing out IPv4 blocks to new players and telling them "tough luck"? Or a lottery? I really don't know a better alternative to a free market.

tjgq 11y ago
Totally agree with you in that IPv6 and the end of NATs are great for the Internet. My honest (though possibly unpopular) opinion is that the incentive should have been given years ago through government intervention, by legally compelling ISPs to provide IPv6 connectivity to their customers. If most of the Internet had been switched to IPv6 by now, no bidding war over IPv4 addresses would need to take place. Naturally, it's moot to point out what could have been done and wasn't. But I think this illustrates a limitation of market-based incentives: they seem to work well on the short term, but have a tendency to fail on the long one. Slow IPv6 adoption is, in my view, a market failure that should have been corrected through government intervention.
- wampus 11y ago
  I have IPv6 through my ISP, Comcast. It's completely broken and unusable due to a bug in the router they upgraded me to last year and force me to use because I have a business account. It took me half a day to figure out the cause of the problem. I'll probably wait another six months to look at it again. This is just one of many sad details plaguing the rollout of IPv6. Maybe the solution will come by skipping it entirely and using something backwards-compatible with IPv4, only with a larger address space (baby steps).
  - simoncion 11y ago
    That's strange. My buddy across the street also has a Comcast Business account. While he does have to use a particular modem, it's handing out a DHCP lease to his personal Airport Extreme. He also has fully functioning IPv6 service. Do you like, have several IPv4 addresses assigned to you or something?
- hackuser 11y ago
  > Totally agree with you in that IPv6 and the end of NATs are great for the Internet. I can see the advantages, but do I want my devices to have publicly routable addresses? I prefer that the public Internet doesn't know the exist and can't easily contact them without receiving a recent outbound connection. (Perhaps I missing an obvious solution here?)
  - NeutronBoy 11y ago
    If your firewall (which you'll still need) is configured correctly, then the wider internet either won't know an address isn't routable, or won't be able to do anything even if it is (there are various schools of thought on blocking ICMP messages from the internet, which range from "you break the internet if you block ICMP" to "I'll blackhole ICMP so nobody knows my devices exist")
    - hackuser 11y ago
      > the wider internet either won't know ... Once a private device communicates with a public Internet server, won't that server and every network between it and the private device (my ISP, etc.) know a publicly routable IP address on my private network? I know a firewall could still help protect it (simple SPI, for example) but having a publicly routable IP would seem to simplify the attacker's job, and possibly reveal information about specific devices and users (i.e., track who is doing what). Also, I assume my firewall's public IP must be on the same public subnet as my internal devices. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to guess the addresses of devices on the private side. I haven't looked at IPv6 much, so again I suspect I'm overlooking something basic. > If your firewall (which you'll still need) is configured correctly In my experience, this situation isn't common -- especially among end users but even among professionals.
      - tjgq 11y ago
        In the absence of a firewall, you are correct that any node that gets hold of the publicly routable address assigned to one of your devices will be able to communicate with it from the outside. This is indeed a problem for most users, who won't know or bother to configure one; ISPs should do it for them on the CPE. Regarding the tracking of specific users: RFC 3041 stateless autoconfiguration (which is deployed at least on Linux and OSX - not sure about Windows) allows a device to switch to a new random IPv6 address within its assigned prefix every few minutes. This mitigates, though it does not eliminate, an attacker's ability to correlate connections originating from the same device over a period of time. Naturally, all of those addresses will share a common IPv6 prefix. But that is no different from most residential NATs, where all connections are observed from the outside to originate from the same IPv4 address. Also due to stateless autoconfiguration, guessing the address of a device from the outside is equivalent to finding a needle in a 2^64-straw haystack. It's not impossible, but it takes time and a lot of traffic to do so.
- cpach 11y ago
  We’re probably worse off if we let governments choose the technology winners. That could impose even higher costs than what we face today.
rqebmm 11y ago
So this is cap-and-trade for IPv4?
whybroke 11y ago
One alternative would be seizing unused addresses (as they are supposed to be) and auctioning them off. Repeating every so often if they're still unused. This would raise prices (in the event that is really desired) while avoiding squatting and rent seeking.
- Arnt 11y ago
  Unused addresses often aren't. You might not be able to connect to them, but that doesn't mean disuse. There are various networks around whose operators want them to have unique addresses but not be connected to the global internet. For example a power company I know about. The operators there decided to use public addresses for the power control/monitoring network instead of 10/8 to be sure of having unique addresses, even in case of a merger or cooperation with another power generator.

by gardarh 11y ago

tjgq 11y ago

Totally agree with you in that IPv6 and the end of NATs are great for the Internet. My honest (though possibly unpopular) opinion is that the incentive should have been given years ago through government intervention, by legally compelling ISPs to provide IPv6 connectivity to their customers. If most of the Internet had been switched to IPv6 by now, no bidding war over IPv4 addresses would need to take place. Naturally, it's moot to point out what could have been done and wasn't. But I think this illustrates a limitation of market-based incentives: they seem to work well on the short term, but have a tendency to fail on the long one. Slow IPv6 adoption is, in my view, a market failure that should have been corrected through government intervention.

wampus 11y ago
I have IPv6 through my ISP, Comcast. It's completely broken and unusable due to a bug in the router they upgraded me to last year and force me to use because I have a business account. It took me half a day to figure out the cause of the problem. I'll probably wait another six months to look at it again. This is just one of many sad details plaguing the rollout of IPv6. Maybe the solution will come by skipping it entirely and using something backwards-compatible with IPv4, only with a larger address space (baby steps).
- simoncion 11y ago
  That's strange. My buddy across the street also has a Comcast Business account. While he does have to use a particular modem, it's handing out a DHCP lease to his personal Airport Extreme. He also has fully functioning IPv6 service. Do you like, have several IPv4 addresses assigned to you or something?
hackuser 11y ago
> Totally agree with you in that IPv6 and the end of NATs are great for the Internet. I can see the advantages, but do I want my devices to have publicly routable addresses? I prefer that the public Internet doesn't know the exist and can't easily contact them without receiving a recent outbound connection. (Perhaps I missing an obvious solution here?)
- NeutronBoy 11y ago
  If your firewall (which you'll still need) is configured correctly, then the wider internet either won't know an address isn't routable, or won't be able to do anything even if it is (there are various schools of thought on blocking ICMP messages from the internet, which range from "you break the internet if you block ICMP" to "I'll blackhole ICMP so nobody knows my devices exist")
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > the wider internet either won't know ... Once a private device communicates with a public Internet server, won't that server and every network between it and the private device (my ISP, etc.) know a publicly routable IP address on my private network? I know a firewall could still help protect it (simple SPI, for example) but having a publicly routable IP would seem to simplify the attacker's job, and possibly reveal information about specific devices and users (i.e., track who is doing what). Also, I assume my firewall's public IP must be on the same public subnet as my internal devices. It doesn't seem like it would be hard to guess the addresses of devices on the private side. I haven't looked at IPv6 much, so again I suspect I'm overlooking something basic. > If your firewall (which you'll still need) is configured correctly In my experience, this situation isn't common -- especially among end users but even among professionals.
    - tjgq 11y ago
      In the absence of a firewall, you are correct that any node that gets hold of the publicly routable address assigned to one of your devices will be able to communicate with it from the outside. This is indeed a problem for most users, who won't know or bother to configure one; ISPs should do it for them on the CPE. Regarding the tracking of specific users: RFC 3041 stateless autoconfiguration (which is deployed at least on Linux and OSX - not sure about Windows) allows a device to switch to a new random IPv6 address within its assigned prefix every few minutes. This mitigates, though it does not eliminate, an attacker's ability to correlate connections originating from the same device over a period of time. Naturally, all of those addresses will share a common IPv6 prefix. But that is no different from most residential NATs, where all connections are observed from the outside to originate from the same IPv4 address. Also due to stateless autoconfiguration, guessing the address of a device from the outside is equivalent to finding a needle in a 2^64-straw haystack. It's not impossible, but it takes time and a lot of traffic to do so.
cpach 11y ago
We’re probably worse off if we let governments choose the technology winners. That could impose even higher costs than what we face today.

rqebmm 11y ago

So this is cap-and-trade for IPv4?

whybroke 11y ago

One alternative would be seizing unused addresses (as they are supposed to be) and auctioning them off. Repeating every so often if they're still unused. This would raise prices (in the event that is really desired) while avoiding squatting and rent seeking.

Arnt 11y ago
Unused addresses often aren't. You might not be able to connect to them, but that doesn't mean disuse. There are various networks around whose operators want them to have unique addresses but not be connected to the global internet. For example a power company I know about. The operators there decided to use public addresses for the power control/monitoring network instead of 10/8 to be sure of having unique addresses, even in case of a merger or cooperation with another power generator.