5 ms·

The quoted article is one point of view. As with all current events, only history will tell who is wrong or right. Another viewpoint is: It is "public knowledg

by r3m6 11y ago

The quoted article is one point of view. As with all current events, only history will tell who is wrong or right. Another viewpoint is: It is "public knowledge" that the same "bitter EU medicine" worked well for Ireland, Portugal and Spain. So from the "Pigs" countries - only the "g" refuses to take it. That is their right. But then don't blame/insult the doctor.

youngtaff 11y ago
I think there are plenty of people in Ireland, Portugal and Spain who would argue that the 'bitter EU medicine' worked for them. Spain has an unemployment rate of 23% for starters. We should also take a look at Iceland, where going a different route to the EU medicine worked well for them.
- pfortuny 11y ago
  That is so true... Few people "working well" in Spain. But TAXES.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    Taxes are not particularly high in Spain. They are below OECD average, not to mention below EU or Eurozone average. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV In 2013, Spain's tax revenue was 32.6 % of GDP. Compare that to Germany 36.7 %, Netherlands 36.3 % and Finland 44.0 %. Also consider that these as proportion of tax revenue to official GDP, and it's pretty safe to assume that Spain has more in grey economy (not in official statistics) than northern Euro countries.
- appleflaxen 11y ago
  Does your first sentence have a typo? It seems to be in tension with your second.
  - youngtaff 11y ago
    Yes, it could do with a with as in "would argue with that"
- holoto 11y ago
  Spains unemployment rate was 24% in 1994. It was 21% in 1985. Or 18% in 1998. Unemployment in Spain is traditionally 10% above northern countries or the US. So yes unemployment is high (we had a crisis and had a recession!) but not as high as you make it look without context.
pjc50 11y ago
"Worked" is still very much arguable: unemployment high and resulting in emigration. Crisis very much not over in Spain.
radisb 11y ago
Or maybe Greece condition is worse and the side-effects of that pill would kill it anyway, and Greek government suspects it and tries to try other alternatives first.
icebraining 11y ago
As a Portuguese, it's far from accepted that it worked well for us.
- galfarragem 11y ago
  Of course it worked: nowadays Portugal can borrow money in the free market with interest rates that are historically low, much cheaper than with the IMF. This means: the world trusts again in Portugal. What you speak about is a completely different thing, Portugal has very old and deep structural problems but they were not caused by this particular crisis, they just got more exposed. Solving them is another story, I don't even think that our democracy (as we know it) is able to do it.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Can we borrow because the world trusts us, or because the world trusts that we'll get bailed out again if we default?
    - galfarragem 11y ago
      The world trusts that they will receive the money that they lend to us. The lender doesn't care from where that money comes. In the end we arrive to the same conclusion, EU/IMF/whatever trust Portugal enough to bail us out again. But I understand where you want to get: "we are behaving like good boys" and making everything that "Germany" says. Would you prefer an atitude like the Greek one, "acting like a spoiled kid"? As Greece, we are a small and periferical country without any power to negotiate by ourselves - we need to associate with others - and sincerely I prefer Portugal to associate with Germany than Greece. Our best way to get through this is by being "the good boys" and man up.
      - icebraining 11y ago
        That's not where I want to get; I don't care about such petty considerations, nor do I agree with any of those characterizations. If it's better for us to strictly comply with the guidelines set by the lenders, I'm fine with that. I'm simply skeptical that any of those parties (private lenders or EC/IMF/ECB) lend us money because they trust us to pay it back, and so I have to wonder why else would they lend us money.
bainsfather 11y ago
History often does not tell who is right or who is wrong, particularly when it comes to economics - 'though no one will believe it - economics is a technical and difficult subject' - when you mix in politics and ideology as well, the truth is often obscured. There are people who argue that the New Deal did not help end the Great Depression: 'it was ending anyway' or 'the second world war ended it'. The Obama stimulus was (a) useless (b) helpful but insufficient (c) just right. Do you think history will reach a consensus on this? Regarding your 'another viewpoint': Greece has implemented eye-wateringly bitter medicine. Like medieval doctors, when bleeding fails to cure the patient, they call for more bleeding, blame the patient for not being devout enough, and say that the suffering is a punishment for past crimes. The fact that bleeding did not manage to kill their other patients clearly demonstrates it was a success, and that Greece is the one at fault, not the doctors.

by r3m6 11y ago

youngtaff 11y ago

I think there are plenty of people in Ireland, Portugal and Spain who would argue that the 'bitter EU medicine' worked for them. Spain has an unemployment rate of 23% for starters. We should also take a look at Iceland, where going a different route to the EU medicine worked well for them.

pfortuny 11y ago
That is so true... Few people "working well" in Spain. But TAXES.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  Taxes are not particularly high in Spain. They are below OECD average, not to mention below EU or Eurozone average. http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=REV In 2013, Spain's tax revenue was 32.6 % of GDP. Compare that to Germany 36.7 %, Netherlands 36.3 % and Finland 44.0 %. Also consider that these as proportion of tax revenue to official GDP, and it's pretty safe to assume that Spain has more in grey economy (not in official statistics) than northern Euro countries.
appleflaxen 11y ago
Does your first sentence have a typo? It seems to be in tension with your second.
- youngtaff 11y ago
  Yes, it could do with a with as in "would argue with that"
holoto 11y ago
Spains unemployment rate was 24% in 1994. It was 21% in 1985. Or 18% in 1998. Unemployment in Spain is traditionally 10% above northern countries or the US. So yes unemployment is high (we had a crisis and had a recession!) but not as high as you make it look without context.

pjc50 11y ago

"Worked" is still very much arguable: unemployment high and resulting in emigration. Crisis very much not over in Spain.

radisb 11y ago

Or maybe Greece condition is worse and the side-effects of that pill would kill it anyway, and Greek government suspects it and tries to try other alternatives first.

icebraining 11y ago

As a Portuguese, it's far from accepted that it worked well for us.

galfarragem 11y ago
Of course it worked: nowadays Portugal can borrow money in the free market with interest rates that are historically low, much cheaper than with the IMF. This means: the world trusts again in Portugal. What you speak about is a completely different thing, Portugal has very old and deep structural problems but they were not caused by this particular crisis, they just got more exposed. Solving them is another story, I don't even think that our democracy (as we know it) is able to do it.
- icebraining 11y ago
  Can we borrow because the world trusts us, or because the world trusts that we'll get bailed out again if we default?
  - galfarragem 11y ago
    The world trusts that they will receive the money that they lend to us. The lender doesn't care from where that money comes. In the end we arrive to the same conclusion, EU/IMF/whatever trust Portugal enough to bail us out again. But I understand where you want to get: "we are behaving like good boys" and making everything that "Germany" says. Would you prefer an atitude like the Greek one, "acting like a spoiled kid"? As Greece, we are a small and periferical country without any power to negotiate by ourselves - we need to associate with others - and sincerely I prefer Portugal to associate with Germany than Greece. Our best way to get through this is by being "the good boys" and man up.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      That's not where I want to get; I don't care about such petty considerations, nor do I agree with any of those characterizations. If it's better for us to strictly comply with the guidelines set by the lenders, I'm fine with that. I'm simply skeptical that any of those parties (private lenders or EC/IMF/ECB) lend us money because they trust us to pay it back, and so I have to wonder why else would they lend us money.

bainsfather 11y ago

History often does not tell who is right or who is wrong, particularly when it comes to economics - 'though no one will believe it - economics is a technical and difficult subject' - when you mix in politics and ideology as well, the truth is often obscured. There are people who argue that the New Deal did not help end the Great Depression: 'it was ending anyway' or 'the second world war ended it'. The Obama stimulus was (a) useless (b) helpful but insufficient (c) just right. Do you think history will reach a consensus on this? Regarding your 'another viewpoint': Greece has implemented eye-wateringly bitter medicine. Like medieval doctors, when bleeding fails to cure the patient, they call for more bleeding, blame the patient for not being devout enough, and say that the suffering is a punishment for past crimes. The fact that bleeding did not manage to kill their other patients clearly demonstrates it was a success, and that Greece is the one at fault, not the doctors.