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I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait f

I believe there are proposals to allow pruning the blockchain, but I'm not 100% sure on the details. To guarantee a transaction goes through you have to wait for it to be confirmed, but most transactions really aren't that important/high risk, so beyond checking that the address does actually have the money, it's instantaneous. Many payment processors (I know Bitpay has this option) actually take the 0 confirmation transaction risk, allowing customers to pay instantly. Transaction fees are not high, with a typical fee of .0001 bitcoin (3 cents), which is small compared to credit card fees. While work needs to be done converting to/from cash, actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards. You simply grab your phone, scan the QR code, and hit send. This is much better than entering your credit card for the thousandth time on another website, or being redirected to paypal, entering your password, and choosing your preferred payment option for the thousandth time (stop asking me to use Paypal Credit!). Using an Android wallet such as Mycelium, or a desktop wallet like Electrum doesn't require you to download the entire blockchain, and although that comes at the cost of some trust, I personally don't find that problematic. Basically, bitcoin has some problems, but I think some of your criticisms are no longer applicable to most everyday usage of it.

CPLX 12y ago
> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost. I know there are a lot of people who really want your above quoted statement to be true. But, for now and the forseeable future, it isn't.
- dollaaron 12y ago
  > It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). Sure, for websites where your information is already saved, or if you leave all your credit card information saved in the browser, then this isn't easier, but they're still pretty comparable in my opinion. Even if it was slightly more work (which I personally disagree with), I would find that worth not having my credit card information saved by who knows how many third parties. > It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. I've never had to go to my credit card company for a refund, since most places I buy from will take refunds with a receipt or proof of purchase (and if they don't, why would I buy from them?). Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards (no single number that allows access to all funds, a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal, although I know wallet security is still not the easiest thing to have). > And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost. This is a very real problem, and what I think will truly determine whether bitcoin gains anything near a large following.
  - hnnewguy 12y ago
    >Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards The CC companies have full control over the transactions. They can stop and/or reverse charges. As far as the consumer is concerned, there is very little risk of fraud.
    - pash 12y ago
      You can get fraud protection with Bitcoin (if you want it) by using two-of-three multisig transactions with an escrow agent of your choosing. The "no recourse for fraud" meme about Bitcoin is simply wrong. There are not many dispute-resolution mechanisms right now because the technology is young and because most existing users don't particularly want (and don't want to pay for) the second-order services that credit-card companies provide. If Bitcoin catches on among a wider demographic, dispute resolution and most other things that Bitcoin "can't do" will get built. The technology is very flexible and can accommodate just about everything that existing payment mechanisms (and monetary systems) offer; the reverse is not true.
- hippich 12y ago
  Comparing bitcoin to credit cards is not quite correct. If you want to compare it to traditional payment instrument, the closest one will be probably cash. And as for credit cards - product can be built on top of bitcoin to provide similar service I believe.
- baddox 12y ago
  It's definitely easier than typing in sixteen digits (plus expiration and security code), assuming you have a device with your Bitcoin wallet handy but no credit card autofiller. If your device has both your Bitcoin wallet and a credit card autofiller, I would say both methods are equally easy.
- Apofis 12y ago
  I run an E-Commerce shop, with inexpensive products and I get fraudulent purchases all the time. If I don't detect a fraudulent transaction, ship the product, when the chargeback comes in not only am I out of the money, I'm out of the product as well. Losing over 200% on that transaction, plus there's usually associated chargeback fees that could be $35-70. Credit Cards are shit for retailers.
- venaoy 12y ago
  You attach too much importance to CC chargeback mechanisms. I am a typical American consumer and in 20 years doing about 5,000 credit card transactions I have never had to issue a single chargeback at all. So I know for a fact that I would be willing to use Bitcoin for all its advantages if that meant giving up the ability to charge back. Consider this: credit card fees which are passed to customers by inflating prices by ~2% probably indirectly cost me north of $20,000 over my 20 years of use. I could have saved $20,000 and I would have been totally fine with the lack of chargeback mechanisms in Bitcoin. Even if I end up being scammed one day by a non-reversible $1000 Bitcoin transaction, I would still be $19,000 financially ahead with Bitcoin. Also, CC chargebacks are far from being perfect. In many cases the customer has no recourse for fraud. For example you cannot chargeback a transaction made more than 60 days ago. Some fraudulent merchants stall shipping (eg. claim delays, issues, ship the wrong thing, etc) for 60 days specifically to exploit this fact and exploit the fact customers don't know about this 60-day chargeback limit. Or if your PIN code is stolen and a fraudulent transaction is made with the PIN code, you will typically be held liable (check your CC fine print, for example: "If your Password or PIN is used in such a transaction, you will be liable for the full debt" from http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_credit_agreement.pdf http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_...) Don't forget that despite the lack of chargebacks, you still have all the other usual recourses available to you if you are defrauded after paying in bitcoins: small court claims, send a complaint to the FTC or BBB, etc. But the fact chargeback mechanisms are rarely needed in the first place, and have various limitations (60-day, PIN stolen, etc) indicates that Bitcoin doesn't need them to be reasonably successful as a payment technology.

CPLX 12y ago

> actually using bitcoin (that you already have) to buy things is a better experience than using credit cards It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost. I know there are a lot of people who really want your above quoted statement to be true. But, for now and the forseeable future, it isn't.

dollaaron 12y ago
> It's just not. It's not easier than swiping a magnetic strip and signing something, or typing in sixteen digits (or using autofill or the site's previously saved CC info) and pressing buy. It's much easier to take your phone, open an app, and scan a QR code, than to take out your credit card, transcribe a 16 digit number, check the expiration date, and enter the CSC (or is it CVC?). Sure, for websites where your information is already saved, or if you leave all your credit card information saved in the browser, then this isn't easier, but they're still pretty comparable in my opinion. Even if it was slightly more work (which I personally disagree with), I would find that worth not having my credit card information saved by who knows how many third parties. > It's not good that I can't demand a return or have recourse in the event of fraud. I've never had to go to my credit card company for a refund, since most places I buy from will take refunds with a receipt or proof of purchase (and if they don't, why would I buy from them?). Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards (no single number that allows access to all funds, a properly secured wallet is impossible to steal, although I know wallet security is still not the easiest thing to have). > And it's not a benefit that with bitcoin I have to spend the money first (to buy bitcoin) and wonder if it will hold its value, versus just buying stuff when I feel like it on credit and covering the transaction within 30 days at no interest cost. This is a very real problem, and what I think will truly determine whether bitcoin gains anything near a large following.
- hnnewguy 12y ago
  >Fraudulent purchases are another issue, but the risk of fraud is lower with bitcoin versus credit cards The CC companies have full control over the transactions. They can stop and/or reverse charges. As far as the consumer is concerned, there is very little risk of fraud.
  - pash 12y ago
    You can get fraud protection with Bitcoin (if you want it) by using two-of-three multisig transactions with an escrow agent of your choosing. The "no recourse for fraud" meme about Bitcoin is simply wrong. There are not many dispute-resolution mechanisms right now because the technology is young and because most existing users don't particularly want (and don't want to pay for) the second-order services that credit-card companies provide. If Bitcoin catches on among a wider demographic, dispute resolution and most other things that Bitcoin "can't do" will get built. The technology is very flexible and can accommodate just about everything that existing payment mechanisms (and monetary systems) offer; the reverse is not true.
hippich 12y ago
Comparing bitcoin to credit cards is not quite correct. If you want to compare it to traditional payment instrument, the closest one will be probably cash. And as for credit cards - product can be built on top of bitcoin to provide similar service I believe.
baddox 12y ago
It's definitely easier than typing in sixteen digits (plus expiration and security code), assuming you have a device with your Bitcoin wallet handy but no credit card autofiller. If your device has both your Bitcoin wallet and a credit card autofiller, I would say both methods are equally easy.
Apofis 12y ago
I run an E-Commerce shop, with inexpensive products and I get fraudulent purchases all the time. If I don't detect a fraudulent transaction, ship the product, when the chargeback comes in not only am I out of the money, I'm out of the product as well. Losing over 200% on that transaction, plus there's usually associated chargeback fees that could be $35-70. Credit Cards are shit for retailers.
venaoy 12y ago
You attach too much importance to CC chargeback mechanisms. I am a typical American consumer and in 20 years doing about 5,000 credit card transactions I have never had to issue a single chargeback at all. So I know for a fact that I would be willing to use Bitcoin for all its advantages if that meant giving up the ability to charge back. Consider this: credit card fees which are passed to customers by inflating prices by ~2% probably indirectly cost me north of $20,000 over my 20 years of use. I could have saved $20,000 and I would have been totally fine with the lack of chargeback mechanisms in Bitcoin. Even if I end up being scammed one day by a non-reversible $1000 Bitcoin transaction, I would still be $19,000 financially ahead with Bitcoin. Also, CC chargebacks are far from being perfect. In many cases the customer has no recourse for fraud. For example you cannot chargeback a transaction made more than 60 days ago. Some fraudulent merchants stall shipping (eg. claim delays, issues, ship the wrong thing, etc) for 60 days specifically to exploit this fact and exploit the fact customers don't know about this 60-day chargeback limit. Or if your PIN code is stolen and a fraudulent transaction is made with the PIN code, you will typically be held liable (check your CC fine print, for example: "If your Password or PIN is used in such a transaction, you will be liable for the full debt" from http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_credit_agreement.pdf http://www.scotiabank.com/ca/common/pdf/borrowing/revolving_...) Don't forget that despite the lack of chargebacks, you still have all the other usual recourses available to you if you are defrauded after paying in bitcoins: small court claims, send a complaint to the FTC or BBB, etc. But the fact chargeback mechanisms are rarely needed in the first place, and have various limitations (60-day, PIN stolen, etc) indicates that Bitcoin doesn't need them to be reasonably successful as a payment technology.