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I’m curious as to how much this will select for people with free time. Many of the CTFs I’ve played in required a quite non-trivial amount of investment of time

I’m curious as to how much this will select for people with free time. Many of the CTFs I’ve played in required a quite non-trivial amount of investment of time (which I didn’t mind, as they’ve been quite enjoyable), but there are certainly people who can’t afford n dozen hours to solve problems due to family/work/other obligations. I do think this is significantly better than the alternative, but I’m also concerned that it will just create a new class of people who do unfairly poorly in the hiring process.

padobson 12y ago
If this works the way they're hoping it will, I have to think it will be a huge time saver over: -Updating a resume -Contacting a recruiter -Replying to recruiters -Searching job descriptions -Writing cover letters -Tweaking previously updated resume -Sending applications -Maintaining a GitHub profile -Working on open source projects that may or may not fit a future job description -Spending 1-5 days interviewing And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure we could come up with a few dozen more.
- danielweber 12y ago
  There are other companies that have tried to be the one-stop-shop for job hunting. It would suck if I worked on my Starfighter rep[1] and then I see a job I want but they want to use my HackerRank rep or StackOverflow rep or whatever elese instead. [1] a term I just made up, and may not correspond to something in reality
  - tptacek 12y ago
    I don't know what it means to be a one-stop-shop for job hunting. I'm flattered by the concern on this thread that we're somehow going to monopolize dev hiring so completely that every working developer will need an account with us in good standing, but (a) that's not going to happen and (b) we wouldn't let it happen in the alternative universe where it might.
    - danielweber 12y ago
      The fear is not that Starfighter dominates; that would be a good case. The fear is that there are a bunch of hiring fiefdoms, all waxing and waning, so that I have to spend a bunch of time on a bunch of them to stay relevant. I don't want to be laid off one day and then find out that these days employers are using StackOverflow scores or wherever and that I should have spent the past year working on that. OTOH, if 1) I can easily find out that SoftwareCo is hiring through Foo-CTF without having built a Foo-CTF profile, and 2) I can spend, say, 5 hours building a profile at Foo-CTF and get a serious response at the end of that, that's good. It means instead of spending 5 hours doing the silly technical interview dance with SoftwareCo, I'm spending 5 hours doing the serious work-sample test with Foo-CTF. Foo-CTF's value-add is that they're experts at doing the work-sample test.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Ok. I see the disconnect. This fear is unplugged from the reality of recruiting incentives. It is in the direct financial interests of companies to recruit you directly, not through us. To recruit through us, they have to pay for the privilege.
elptacek 12y ago
Good point. Something I'll keep in mind as we go forward. I got so far through microcorruption and ran out of time. Thanks.
j2kun 12y ago
Why is it unfair to hire people who spend large fractions of their free time honing their skill over those who don't? I mean, if it shows in the quality of their work... Edit: I know this comment is unpopular, but every craft industry does work like this to some extent. As a programmer you have a portfolio, and all else being equal those who spend their free time coding have larger and more impressive portfolios. That's the career advice you always give someone on getting their feet into the industry: code more on your own.
- japesinator 12y ago
  Because free time is something disproportionately available to the privileged. I grew up in a household where money, even if it wasn't abundant, wasn't a huge concern, so I could spend my time outside of school learning math/computers. I've never had to keep a part-time job to put food on the table, spend anhours walking because I couldn't afford gas, or generally be forced to trade my time for money at a terrible ratio. There are people who have, many of whom are likely a better candidate than me, who might just not have the time or mental energy to get home and spend 6 hours hacking on microcontrollers.
  - j2kun 12y ago
    I think I see what you mean: if this replaces interviews entirely then some people just won't be considered for the job because they have children. To me that sounds like a policy issue (it's illegal to discriminate based on irrelevant features to the job). I.e., not something that the designer of the CTF should be responsible for, but something a company could be very liable for if they aren't careful in how the apply the CTF.
    - achompas 12y ago
      Parent's point is that companies implicitly filter for this by asking candidates to participate in time-consuming multi-phase interview processes. It's already difficult to work contract-for-hire or take time off for several days of on-site interviews, and it gets much more complicated when you're not well-off or you also have to take care of your kids.
Kalium 12y ago
If people have neither the skills you need nor the free time to learn and demonstrate new skills, then there's few good ways to identify them.
patio11 12y ago
We'll try to make Starfighter maximally useful for casting as wide a net as possible in the candidate pool, including folks who have demanding career/family/etc situations. I'm an ex-salaryman, believe me, I know the frustration. That said, the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good here. The hiring process as it exists on March 9th 2015 is already insanely hostile to people who don't have scheduling flexibility to invest hundreds of hours to doing speculative work. "Hey, could you fly to a different continent for 3 days to do six rounds of in-person interviews?" is considered an attractive, reasonable proposition. We can extract more signal than that gauntlet gives, in substantially less time, delivered in the candidate's own space and at their own pace. This is an unambiguous win for candidates with commitments.
- jasonlotito 12y ago
  How do you ensure people won't be required to still fly out for 3 days of interviews? How do you prevent this from being just another filter before the "real" interview begins?
  - tptacek 12y ago
    Give us some suggestions. We're all ears.
    - jasonlotito 12y ago
      My worry is that this service could be seen as yet another certification, and just adds to the list of things you "have to do." I guess I can ask you directly: how much time do you spend interviewing people, not counting the work-samples you already require? As for suggestions, it's really about the next year. Unless you've already been doing this, you have to find people, and place them. And that means working not only with the programmers, but also the companies involved. Part of that would mean coaching them on how to use your system. You want to destroy the current tech interview process? You have to replace it. You want to remove the tech portion? Then I think the best way right now is working directly with the companies you are placing people with. They need to play by your rules, and a year from now is when you'll have a better understanding of where you stand, as the person you've placed is hired, and still employed. Obviously there is more than just one candidate and company, but unless that happens, I don't see a company just buying into your system without keeping it's own. So you need to teach them what it is you are providing, and what they should do to maximize interaction with the candidate. The interviews will still exist: I want to meet the person I'm working for before I show up. But instead of dealing with white boards and ping pong balls, we are having a conversation about my potential future with the company, and what I can bring to the table. patio11 said it: "we’re here to destroy it, and create something new and better in its place." A job interview has two sides, the applicant, and the company, and if you want to destroy the interview and rebuild it, you have to do it with both sides at the same table. Otherwise, you aren't destroying anything, just adding more red tape before anyone gets to the table.
fixxer 12y ago
I was thinking this too. I did the cryptopals while in grad school and was able to complete it. I got 15 minutes in microcorruption before I got sucked into a wormhole of meetings.
dragonwriter 12y ago
> I’m curious as to how much this will select for people with free time. There are very few hiring mechanisms (including, you know, the whole application and interview process) that don't select for people with free time.

padobson 12y ago

If this works the way they're hoping it will, I have to think it will be a huge time saver over: -Updating a resume -Contacting a recruiter -Replying to recruiters -Searching job descriptions -Writing cover letters -Tweaking previously updated resume -Sending applications -Maintaining a GitHub profile -Working on open source projects that may or may not fit a future job description -Spending 1-5 days interviewing And that's just off the top of my head. I'm sure we could come up with a few dozen more.

danielweber 12y ago
There are other companies that have tried to be the one-stop-shop for job hunting. It would suck if I worked on my Starfighter rep[1] and then I see a job I want but they want to use my HackerRank rep or StackOverflow rep or whatever elese instead. [1] a term I just made up, and may not correspond to something in reality
- tptacek 12y ago
  I don't know what it means to be a one-stop-shop for job hunting. I'm flattered by the concern on this thread that we're somehow going to monopolize dev hiring so completely that every working developer will need an account with us in good standing, but (a) that's not going to happen and (b) we wouldn't let it happen in the alternative universe where it might.
  - danielweber 12y ago
    The fear is not that Starfighter dominates; that would be a good case. The fear is that there are a bunch of hiring fiefdoms, all waxing and waning, so that I have to spend a bunch of time on a bunch of them to stay relevant. I don't want to be laid off one day and then find out that these days employers are using StackOverflow scores or wherever and that I should have spent the past year working on that. OTOH, if 1) I can easily find out that SoftwareCo is hiring through Foo-CTF without having built a Foo-CTF profile, and 2) I can spend, say, 5 hours building a profile at Foo-CTF and get a serious response at the end of that, that's good. It means instead of spending 5 hours doing the silly technical interview dance with SoftwareCo, I'm spending 5 hours doing the serious work-sample test with Foo-CTF. Foo-CTF's value-add is that they're experts at doing the work-sample test.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Ok. I see the disconnect. This fear is unplugged from the reality of recruiting incentives. It is in the direct financial interests of companies to recruit you directly, not through us. To recruit through us, they have to pay for the privilege.

elptacek 12y ago

Good point. Something I'll keep in mind as we go forward. I got so far through microcorruption and ran out of time. Thanks.

j2kun 12y ago

Why is it unfair to hire people who spend large fractions of their free time honing their skill over those who don't? I mean, if it shows in the quality of their work... Edit: I know this comment is unpopular, but every craft industry does work like this to some extent. As a programmer you have a portfolio, and all else being equal those who spend their free time coding have larger and more impressive portfolios. That's the career advice you always give someone on getting their feet into the industry: code more on your own.

japesinator 12y ago
Because free time is something disproportionately available to the privileged. I grew up in a household where money, even if it wasn't abundant, wasn't a huge concern, so I could spend my time outside of school learning math/computers. I've never had to keep a part-time job to put food on the table, spend anhours walking because I couldn't afford gas, or generally be forced to trade my time for money at a terrible ratio. There are people who have, many of whom are likely a better candidate than me, who might just not have the time or mental energy to get home and spend 6 hours hacking on microcontrollers.
- j2kun 12y ago
  I think I see what you mean: if this replaces interviews entirely then some people just won't be considered for the job because they have children. To me that sounds like a policy issue (it's illegal to discriminate based on irrelevant features to the job). I.e., not something that the designer of the CTF should be responsible for, but something a company could be very liable for if they aren't careful in how the apply the CTF.
  - achompas 12y ago
    Parent's point is that companies implicitly filter for this by asking candidates to participate in time-consuming multi-phase interview processes. It's already difficult to work contract-for-hire or take time off for several days of on-site interviews, and it gets much more complicated when you're not well-off or you also have to take care of your kids.

Kalium 12y ago

If people have neither the skills you need nor the free time to learn and demonstrate new skills, then there's few good ways to identify them.

patio11 12y ago

We'll try to make Starfighter maximally useful for casting as wide a net as possible in the candidate pool, including folks who have demanding career/family/etc situations. I'm an ex-salaryman, believe me, I know the frustration. That said, the perfect shouldn't be the enemy of the good here. The hiring process as it exists on March 9th 2015 is already insanely hostile to people who don't have scheduling flexibility to invest hundreds of hours to doing speculative work. "Hey, could you fly to a different continent for 3 days to do six rounds of in-person interviews?" is considered an attractive, reasonable proposition. We can extract more signal than that gauntlet gives, in substantially less time, delivered in the candidate's own space and at their own pace. This is an unambiguous win for candidates with commitments.

jasonlotito 12y ago
How do you ensure people won't be required to still fly out for 3 days of interviews? How do you prevent this from being just another filter before the "real" interview begins?
- tptacek 12y ago
  Give us some suggestions. We're all ears.
  - jasonlotito 12y ago
    My worry is that this service could be seen as yet another certification, and just adds to the list of things you "have to do." I guess I can ask you directly: how much time do you spend interviewing people, not counting the work-samples you already require? As for suggestions, it's really about the next year. Unless you've already been doing this, you have to find people, and place them. And that means working not only with the programmers, but also the companies involved. Part of that would mean coaching them on how to use your system. You want to destroy the current tech interview process? You have to replace it. You want to remove the tech portion? Then I think the best way right now is working directly with the companies you are placing people with. They need to play by your rules, and a year from now is when you'll have a better understanding of where you stand, as the person you've placed is hired, and still employed. Obviously there is more than just one candidate and company, but unless that happens, I don't see a company just buying into your system without keeping it's own. So you need to teach them what it is you are providing, and what they should do to maximize interaction with the candidate. The interviews will still exist: I want to meet the person I'm working for before I show up. But instead of dealing with white boards and ping pong balls, we are having a conversation about my potential future with the company, and what I can bring to the table. patio11 said it: "we’re here to destroy it, and create something new and better in its place." A job interview has two sides, the applicant, and the company, and if you want to destroy the interview and rebuild it, you have to do it with both sides at the same table. Otherwise, you aren't destroying anything, just adding more red tape before anyone gets to the table.

fixxer 12y ago

I was thinking this too. I did the cryptopals while in grad school and was able to complete it. I got 15 minutes in microcorruption before I got sucked into a wormhole of meetings.

dragonwriter 12y ago

> I’m curious as to how much this will select for people with free time. There are very few hiring mechanisms (including, you know, the whole application and interview process) that don't select for people with free time.