26 ms·

Coding Like a Girl

65 points by kenpratt 12y ago

tomlock 12y ago
Awesome article! I hope my fellow dudes read this and really pay attention!
Fomite 12y ago
Guidelines and reactions on how to dress are always eye opening. I remember reading some advice for academic job interviews. For men, it was essentially remember to wear clothing, don't dress like an investment banker, and you'll be fine. For women, it was paragraphs long. Too feminine and they'll mistake you for a departmental secretary. Too youthful and they'll dismiss you as a student. Too severe and you're "not collegial". Too approachable and you're not serious. The whole thing was just a minefield.
MollyR 12y ago
This article makes me wonder if I work in a weird microcosm of the tech world. Where I work, half the programmers dress in t-shirt,jeans (both men and women 50/50 actually) and then the other half of programmers(again 50/50) dress much more business professional. Even some of the graphic designers dress really formally lately, think pant suit. From what I talked around about and discovered, a lot of it has to do with some of their career ambitions. Some of the more formally dressed programmers want to be project managers, or they read a book on business etiquette and want job security or something. It's where I first learned of books like Corporate Confidential, and others on business politics. My personal anecdote: Honestly I've gotten the harshest criticism including gendered criticism from other women in the corp on the way I dress. The harshest criticism included gendered doesn't even come from the tech side, but business or research analysts. I don't know if the my team's tech guys care or not, but they sure haven't made comments one way or the other. Why is so much criticism of women being in tech at the tech guys and not at the other men AND women in other departments enforcing stereotypes in the company ?
leppr 12y ago
I'm a man and the same thing happens to me all the time. People always tell me "What? You're too handsome and muscular, I don't believe you're a programmer, programmer look like geeks and are socially awkward!". It's really tough to fit in at work. Lately I've been growing my beard and drinking beers because of the social pressure, but I feel bad about it. I really wish people would stop putting everyone in a stereotype and just look at our work first, updating their mental stereotypes afterwards if need be.
- mycroft-holmes 12y ago
  Same here. I worked at a creative agency some time ago and nearly every employee, men and women, at some point told me, "You know, you don't really look like a coder to me. You're too fashionable and you're not socially awkward." I just take it in stride. What's the big deal? I just don't make it some huge issue that's related to my gender.
  - robmcm 12y ago
    Perhaps because your see it as a complement, and so do the people telling you. Try flipping it on it's head see how you reacted if someone told you, "You don't look very clever, you must spend all your time looking in the mirror and talking about your feelings. Why don't you go and buy yourself something pretty while we talk about the grown up stuff".
    - mycroft-holmes 12y ago
      That's quite the assumption. When I'm around your stereotypical programmer, I feel they assume I'm not as technical.
      - robmcm 12y ago
        That may not bother you, but lets assume it does. You may be willing to change your fashion sense in order to gain their respect (even though you shouldn't!) but you gender/race is something you can't easily change. The problem is with the people projecting their discrimination on to you and your colleagues. You should fight this not encourage or accept it.
CmonDev 12y ago
The problem is that the rules of man-woman interaction are not well defined (especially since the traditional family was destroyed last century). Is there a way to look at girl in a cute pink dress and tell whether she is there to just present a tech topic or she is also open to potential dating? Women are a passive gender, so the way they dress is one of the few ways to send a signal.
- EliRivers 12y ago
  Is there a way to look at girl in a cute pink dress and tell whether she is there to just present a tech topic or she is also open to potential dating? No. You're asking too much to be reliable able to look at someone and know if they're open to dating. Given that your target demographic is about 50% of the world's population, the variation is just too large for you to be able to do this. You're going to have to try something else. Perhaps a polite, friendly conversation and a sustained programme of getting to know them will help you know if they're open to dating.
- mkr-hn 12y ago
  It might be easier to get to know women as friends by default and be open to it developing into something more. This seems like the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't see how someone can function if they think of every person they're attracted to in terms of dateability.
- rakoo 12y ago
  You seem to be falling in the "they dress for men" fallacy that was addressed in the article: maybe they dress in cute pink dresses just to send a big FUCK YOU. Maybe they're not sending any signals and you're using that as an excuse for the different treatment you do. But the real problem is that the situations you are talking about do not happen when meeting a complete stranger at random in the street; the encounter happens in a tech conference or at work, where you can expect people to be there because of their skills and interests. Would you ever expect any male to be present in a tech conf not because he's interested in the technology but because he's accompanying someone ? Why is it normal to expect it for females ? The problem is absolutely not in how women dress/behave/talk/present, it's how the other persons (including other women!) expect something different simply because of their gender.

65 points by kenpratt 12y ago

Awesome article! I hope my fellow dudes read this and really pay attention!

Guidelines and reactions on how to dress are always eye opening. I remember reading some advice for academic job interviews. For men, it was essentially remember to wear clothing, don't dress like an investment banker, and you'll be fine. For women, it was paragraphs long. Too feminine and they'll mistake you for a departmental secretary. Too youthful and they'll dismiss you as a student. Too severe and you're "not collegial". Too approachable and you're not serious. The whole thing was just a minefield.

MollyR 12y ago

This article makes me wonder if I work in a weird microcosm of the tech world. Where I work, half the programmers dress in t-shirt,jeans (both men and women 50/50 actually) and then the other half of programmers(again 50/50) dress much more business professional. Even some of the graphic designers dress really formally lately, think pant suit. From what I talked around about and discovered, a lot of it has to do with some of their career ambitions. Some of the more formally dressed programmers want to be project managers, or they read a book on business etiquette and want job security or something. It's where I first learned of books like Corporate Confidential, and others on business politics. My personal anecdote: Honestly I've gotten the harshest criticism including gendered criticism from other women in the corp on the way I dress. The harshest criticism included gendered doesn't even come from the tech side, but business or research analysts. I don't know if the my team's tech guys care or not, but they sure haven't made comments one way or the other. Why is so much criticism of women being in tech at the tech guys and not at the other men AND women in other departments enforcing stereotypes in the company ?

leppr 12y ago

I'm a man and the same thing happens to me all the time. People always tell me "What? You're too handsome and muscular, I don't believe you're a programmer, programmer look like geeks and are socially awkward!". It's really tough to fit in at work. Lately I've been growing my beard and drinking beers because of the social pressure, but I feel bad about it. I really wish people would stop putting everyone in a stereotype and just look at our work first, updating their mental stereotypes afterwards if need be.

mycroft-holmes 12y ago
Same here. I worked at a creative agency some time ago and nearly every employee, men and women, at some point told me, "You know, you don't really look like a coder to me. You're too fashionable and you're not socially awkward." I just take it in stride. What's the big deal? I just don't make it some huge issue that's related to my gender.
- robmcm 12y ago
  Perhaps because your see it as a complement, and so do the people telling you. Try flipping it on it's head see how you reacted if someone told you, "You don't look very clever, you must spend all your time looking in the mirror and talking about your feelings. Why don't you go and buy yourself something pretty while we talk about the grown up stuff".
  - mycroft-holmes 12y ago
    That's quite the assumption. When I'm around your stereotypical programmer, I feel they assume I'm not as technical.
    - robmcm 12y ago
      That may not bother you, but lets assume it does. You may be willing to change your fashion sense in order to gain their respect (even though you shouldn't!) but you gender/race is something you can't easily change. The problem is with the people projecting their discrimination on to you and your colleagues. You should fight this not encourage or accept it.

CmonDev 12y ago

The problem is that the rules of man-woman interaction are not well defined (especially since the traditional family was destroyed last century). Is there a way to look at girl in a cute pink dress and tell whether she is there to just present a tech topic or she is also open to potential dating? Women are a passive gender, so the way they dress is one of the few ways to send a signal.

EliRivers 12y ago
Is there a way to look at girl in a cute pink dress and tell whether she is there to just present a tech topic or she is also open to potential dating? No. You're asking too much to be reliable able to look at someone and know if they're open to dating. Given that your target demographic is about 50% of the world's population, the variation is just too large for you to be able to do this. You're going to have to try something else. Perhaps a polite, friendly conversation and a sustained programme of getting to know them will help you know if they're open to dating.
mkr-hn 12y ago
It might be easier to get to know women as friends by default and be open to it developing into something more. This seems like the only reasonable way to go about it. I don't see how someone can function if they think of every person they're attracted to in terms of dateability.
rakoo 12y ago
You seem to be falling in the "they dress for men" fallacy that was addressed in the article: maybe they dress in cute pink dresses just to send a big FUCK YOU. Maybe they're not sending any signals and you're using that as an excuse for the different treatment you do. But the real problem is that the situations you are talking about do not happen when meeting a complete stranger at random in the street; the encounter happens in a tech conference or at work, where you can expect people to be there because of their skills and interests. Would you ever expect any male to be present in a tech conf not because he's interested in the technology but because he's accompanying someone ? Why is it normal to expect it for females ? The problem is absolutely not in how women dress/behave/talk/present, it's how the other persons (including other women!) expect something different simply because of their gender.