6 ms·

High caliber post. I'm curious about the manufacturing process and rate of firing error. There were a lot of moving parts and it would seem difficult to ensure

High caliber post. I'm curious about the manufacturing process and rate of firing error. There were a lot of moving parts and it would seem difficult to ensure that the gun won't get jammed or have other issues.

ericcumbee 12y ago
They happen even in quality weapons like a 1911 or your modern Glock or Sig Sauer. The biggest one is Failure to Eject, where the cartridge casing fails to completely clear the chamber and gets stuck in the extractor. They do test fire them at the factory (10 rounds or so) but it takes anywhere between 200-500 rounds to properly break a firearm in. And even then it can depend on the brand, type and quality of the rounds you are using. I bought a bunch of cheap ammo for practice. my Sig Sauer runs it fine, my friends old no name gun Fails to Eject it 1 in 5 times. That is why most firearm instructors say to never trust a firearm and ammunition combo for defensive purposes until you've run 500 rounds.
- alistairSH 12y ago
  Another thing I've noticed - the 1911 is produced by a wide range of manufacturers. The boutique brands can be a bit finicky and the buyers are often tinkerers, which can give a pistol neophyte a skewed perception of the design.
exelius 12y ago
You are right to be concerned about such things -- the 1911 is notorious for jamming frequently. Specifically the ejector mechanism; if the gun is not held steady after firing, the spent cartridge tends to get jammed between the barrel and the slide. This is even more common among people with small hands since they don't have the leverage to handle the recoil of a relatively beefy .45 cartridge. This is the primary reason why the army replaced the 1911 with the Baretta M9, a 9mm pistol with much less recoil and a larger magazine size. The M9 is much less prone to jamming for a number of reasons, but the bullet is much lighter and has significantly less stopping power. A .45 round will generally put someone on their ass even if it doesn't kill them from kinetic energy alone; the same can't be said for a 9mm.
- speeder 12y ago
  I always thought that guns jamming was for things getting stuck in the barrel or failing to fire. After watching this site I noticed that jam is... mechanical issues, SPECIALLY with the slide, on this weapon, I believed this weapon had a special semi-auto mechanism, that is, that something ensured the slide would slide back, after seeing it slides back purely from recoil I concluded two things: One, it is a hell of a recoil... (otherwise the slide would not slide back). Two, it only works if you don't let the gun go backwards, if you shoot, and allow it to go back, the energy of the recoil will be spent by your body, not the slide, thus the slide won't slide, thus you will have to slide manually... Making it very non-semi-auto. Also I noticed the ejector also rely on some small machined parts (like the one that hold the cartridge rim), and thus if not made properly will probably fail (the slide will go back but the cartridge won't go back with it, this probably would be the sort of jam that is an actual jam, you would need to push the cartridge out with another object). And the amount of springs I am seeing around, mean cyclic fatigue failure of the metal probably causes a couple of issues, I think that a frequently fired gun probably more than cleaning also might require frequent change of springs.
  - exelius 12y ago
    All of these are concerns, to be sure. There is a reason cartridges are made of brass: it's hard, but it's softer than the steel that the gun is made of. So wear and tear on the ejector mechanism is lessened. Same with the bullet, which is a softer metal than the barrel. And yes, the .45 specifically has a hell of a recoil, though the weight of the slide has a lot to do with it as well. Just remember your basic physics: if you're ejecting a 20g projectile at 1200fps, the 600g slide is going to travel backwards at 40 fps (which is still very fast). Cyclic fatigue is also a thing; which is why you make sure to keep your springs lubricated and replace them periodically. A gun is a machine that must be maintained properly, like any other.
    - chroma 12y ago
      Your general point about the slide recoil is correct, but your comparison isn't. Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity. k = 1/2 * mv^2 In your example, the projectile has... 1/2 * 20g * (365 m/s)^2 = 1330 joules ...of kinetic energy. But your slide has... 1/2 * 600g * (12.2 m/s)^2 = 44 joules ...of kinetic energy. Solve for the slide velocity... 1/2 * 0.600kg * (x m/s)^2 = 1330 joules 0.300kg * (x m/s)^2 = 1330 joules (x m/s)^2 = 4433 m^2/s^2 x = 66.58 m/s So the slide is initially traveling backwards at around 65 meters per second. Probably faster, since only a fraction of the deflagration is transferred to the bullet. Another nitpick: I think your example is not representative. A 20 gram bullet and 600 gram slide are both very heavy for a handgun. Using typical numbers: Hydra-shok 9mm +P has a bullet weighing 8 grams, which exits the muzzle at 350 meters per second. That gives 490 joules of kinetic energy. I weighed the slide on my Sig Sauer P239 at 300 grams. Plug those numbers in, and you get a slide traveling backwards at 57 meters per second. Not too different, but worth mentioning. That said, I completely agree with everything else in your comment. Thank you for explaining the intricacies of handgun and ammunition metallurgy.
damoncali 12y ago
1911's are by modern standards sloppy, inaccurate and unreliable unless you put huge amounts of effort into maintaining precise tolerances. Modern designs (Glock, et al.) have far fewer components, and much less trouble with the tolerance stack ups that plague the 1911. That said, it's a hell of a design to still be in use 100+ years later.
- joshuapants 12y ago
  1911s require a hell of a lot of hand-fitting to be quality products as well, because that's the way it was designed.
- exabrial 12y ago
  You're joking right? A 1911 is one of the most accurate pistols ever made. Go to any firearms competition and your shooters will have them. They do require maintenance, but it's not unreasonable, it's on par with keeping a rifle or shotgun clean. You're absolutely right about more complexity in the design though. Modern "hole punchers" like M&Ps and Glocks are far simpler and exceed a 1911 in reliability. But a 1911 will wipe the floor with either of those pistols in an accuracy contest.
  - Zancarius 12y ago
    I'd imagine it also depends on the manufacturers. Nearly everyone makes a 1911 these days, and the cheaper models are most certainly not the sort you'd use in competitive shooting like a Les Baer. On the other hand, only a competitive shooter would sink a couple grand (or more) on a heavily accuratized firearm. That said, I own both a Glock and a 1911. Both shoot well and are probably far more accurate than me. :) I tend to like the Glock a little more because of its simplicity and ease of taking it apart. That's not to say the 1911 is that much more complicated, but it can be off-putting to some. I happen to enjoy cleaning my guns. So, there's that.
  - damoncali 12y ago
    unless you put huge amounts of effort into maintaining precise tolerances

ericcumbee 12y ago

They happen even in quality weapons like a 1911 or your modern Glock or Sig Sauer. The biggest one is Failure to Eject, where the cartridge casing fails to completely clear the chamber and gets stuck in the extractor. They do test fire them at the factory (10 rounds or so) but it takes anywhere between 200-500 rounds to properly break a firearm in. And even then it can depend on the brand, type and quality of the rounds you are using. I bought a bunch of cheap ammo for practice. my Sig Sauer runs it fine, my friends old no name gun Fails to Eject it 1 in 5 times. That is why most firearm instructors say to never trust a firearm and ammunition combo for defensive purposes until you've run 500 rounds.

alistairSH 12y ago
Another thing I've noticed - the 1911 is produced by a wide range of manufacturers. The boutique brands can be a bit finicky and the buyers are often tinkerers, which can give a pistol neophyte a skewed perception of the design.

exelius 12y ago

You are right to be concerned about such things -- the 1911 is notorious for jamming frequently. Specifically the ejector mechanism; if the gun is not held steady after firing, the spent cartridge tends to get jammed between the barrel and the slide. This is even more common among people with small hands since they don't have the leverage to handle the recoil of a relatively beefy .45 cartridge. This is the primary reason why the army replaced the 1911 with the Baretta M9, a 9mm pistol with much less recoil and a larger magazine size. The M9 is much less prone to jamming for a number of reasons, but the bullet is much lighter and has significantly less stopping power. A .45 round will generally put someone on their ass even if it doesn't kill them from kinetic energy alone; the same can't be said for a 9mm.

speeder 12y ago
I always thought that guns jamming was for things getting stuck in the barrel or failing to fire. After watching this site I noticed that jam is... mechanical issues, SPECIALLY with the slide, on this weapon, I believed this weapon had a special semi-auto mechanism, that is, that something ensured the slide would slide back, after seeing it slides back purely from recoil I concluded two things: One, it is a hell of a recoil... (otherwise the slide would not slide back). Two, it only works if you don't let the gun go backwards, if you shoot, and allow it to go back, the energy of the recoil will be spent by your body, not the slide, thus the slide won't slide, thus you will have to slide manually... Making it very non-semi-auto. Also I noticed the ejector also rely on some small machined parts (like the one that hold the cartridge rim), and thus if not made properly will probably fail (the slide will go back but the cartridge won't go back with it, this probably would be the sort of jam that is an actual jam, you would need to push the cartridge out with another object). And the amount of springs I am seeing around, mean cyclic fatigue failure of the metal probably causes a couple of issues, I think that a frequently fired gun probably more than cleaning also might require frequent change of springs.
- exelius 12y ago
  All of these are concerns, to be sure. There is a reason cartridges are made of brass: it's hard, but it's softer than the steel that the gun is made of. So wear and tear on the ejector mechanism is lessened. Same with the bullet, which is a softer metal than the barrel. And yes, the .45 specifically has a hell of a recoil, though the weight of the slide has a lot to do with it as well. Just remember your basic physics: if you're ejecting a 20g projectile at 1200fps, the 600g slide is going to travel backwards at 40 fps (which is still very fast). Cyclic fatigue is also a thing; which is why you make sure to keep your springs lubricated and replace them periodically. A gun is a machine that must be maintained properly, like any other.
  - chroma 12y ago
    Your general point about the slide recoil is correct, but your comparison isn't. Kinetic energy is proportional to the square of velocity. k = 1/2 * mv^2 In your example, the projectile has... 1/2 * 20g * (365 m/s)^2 = 1330 joules ...of kinetic energy. But your slide has... 1/2 * 600g * (12.2 m/s)^2 = 44 joules ...of kinetic energy. Solve for the slide velocity... 1/2 * 0.600kg * (x m/s)^2 = 1330 joules 0.300kg * (x m/s)^2 = 1330 joules (x m/s)^2 = 4433 m^2/s^2 x = 66.58 m/s So the slide is initially traveling backwards at around 65 meters per second. Probably faster, since only a fraction of the deflagration is transferred to the bullet. Another nitpick: I think your example is not representative. A 20 gram bullet and 600 gram slide are both very heavy for a handgun. Using typical numbers: Hydra-shok 9mm +P has a bullet weighing 8 grams, which exits the muzzle at 350 meters per second. That gives 490 joules of kinetic energy. I weighed the slide on my Sig Sauer P239 at 300 grams. Plug those numbers in, and you get a slide traveling backwards at 57 meters per second. Not too different, but worth mentioning. That said, I completely agree with everything else in your comment. Thank you for explaining the intricacies of handgun and ammunition metallurgy.

damoncali 12y ago

1911's are by modern standards sloppy, inaccurate and unreliable unless you put huge amounts of effort into maintaining precise tolerances. Modern designs (Glock, et al.) have far fewer components, and much less trouble with the tolerance stack ups that plague the 1911. That said, it's a hell of a design to still be in use 100+ years later.

joshuapants 12y ago
1911s require a hell of a lot of hand-fitting to be quality products as well, because that's the way it was designed.
exabrial 12y ago
You're joking right? A 1911 is one of the most accurate pistols ever made. Go to any firearms competition and your shooters will have them. They do require maintenance, but it's not unreasonable, it's on par with keeping a rifle or shotgun clean. You're absolutely right about more complexity in the design though. Modern "hole punchers" like M&Ps and Glocks are far simpler and exceed a 1911 in reliability. But a 1911 will wipe the floor with either of those pistols in an accuracy contest.
- Zancarius 12y ago
  I'd imagine it also depends on the manufacturers. Nearly everyone makes a 1911 these days, and the cheaper models are most certainly not the sort you'd use in competitive shooting like a Les Baer. On the other hand, only a competitive shooter would sink a couple grand (or more) on a heavily accuratized firearm. That said, I own both a Glock and a 1911. Both shoot well and are probably far more accurate than me. :) I tend to like the Glock a little more because of its simplicity and ease of taking it apart. That's not to say the 1911 is that much more complicated, but it can be off-putting to some. I happen to enjoy cleaning my guns. So, there's that.
- damoncali 12y ago
  unless you put huge amounts of effort into maintaining precise tolerances