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Gee willickers, I sure am glad nothing like that happens here in the good old US of A.

lawl 12y ago
> During Mr. Putin’s first stint in the presidency, slick techniques imported from the West helped engineer a spectacular rise in his approval ratings (emphasis mine)
efbbbf 12y ago
Well, with Russia's already severe lack of independent media or freedom of speech and the active repression of both, things are certainly looking a lot bleaker than anywhere in the west, including the US.
- calibraxis 12y ago
  The problem with US propaganda (like New York Times) is the US is the far more powerful mafia boss than say Russia. (Just look at militant attacks which reach across the world, not to mention incarceration.) Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. (As this is a US-dominated forum.)
  - nothrabannosir 12y ago
    How much karma do you need on HN to downvote? Because this deserves one. How often are we going to repeat this point? Okay, as slowly and clearly as I can: "Two wrongs don't make a right." Just because the US does bad thing X, doesn't mean we can't talk about another country doing bad thing X. Please, for the love of baby Jesus and his family. Please. Please. I won't even top it off with a "the country's people are not the same as its government," or anything like it. I just beg of you, please, please stop using this line of reasoning. I'm so exhausted of seeing it. It wears me down. PS: GP has a point, he sketches the context. Fine. "Russia is not the only one, also US." Okay, it's true. But when you say "don't talk about Russia, because US!" then no. No, no, no, no. No. EDIT: Can't reply to "rational-future", so I'll say it here: No, not at all. The opposite. As I said: "GP has a point". My problem is here: > Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. This is wrong. Telling people to shut up because their government / countrymen / ... does the same thing. Sure, call them out for being hypocrites. But even hypocrites have a right to speak. So, yeah: do talk about the US. Sure. Give me context. As long as you leave all the room for the original discussion.
    - rational-future 12y ago
      So you're saying "Don't talk US, because Russia"?
      - deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
      - mahranch 12y ago
        I feel like you completely missed the point of his comment. Probably purposefully. To answer your question, just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean something can't be more "wrong". Just because I jaywalked yesteday doesn't mean I'm on the same level as a meth dealer, for example. Life isn't black and white, it's shades of grey. Something can be much darker than another thing. And it's OK to point that out. As is the case here. The U.S media certainly isn't up to snuff, but the situation in Russia and other state-owned news agenicies are absolutely horrible by comparison. There may be poverty in the U.S but that doesn't mean it's on the same level as in a country like Ethiopia. As much as the Russian defenders want to equate the two, they are NOT comparable.
  - deleted 12y ago
    [deleted]
  - icebraining 12y ago
    Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. It's only hypocritical if you don't also point the finger at your own flaws. Which people in this forum do. A lot. Besides, not everyone agrees anymore with the notion that they must "have a country". What's my country? I have double nationality, and I live in an union of 28 countries. Lots of us work and live moving from country to country. And I feel more at home with some people here than with the average citizen of my city. I still hold a soft spot for the place I grew up in, but I don't consider myself tied to it. It's not mine, nor do I belong to it. EDIT: My ignorance was showing. Thanks, Atropos.
    - Atropos 12y ago
      Small nitpick: EU has 28 member states, everybody always forgets about Croatia :)
astazangasta 12y ago
Let's never forget the aggressive narrative-peddling by New York Times that brought us into war in Iraq.
blumkvist 12y ago
Nice commenting history.
bayesianhorse 12y ago
No, actually it doesn't... This stuff may be going on inside Fox News, and I doubt that. But that would be a single TV channel. In Russia they coordinate among all TV channels and there is no dissenting voice. The superiority of western media over what is available from Russia or similar countries is not in the honesty and quality of any single media outfit, but in the plurality of media voices. In the west, there are so many channels, shows, magazines and online sites, financed by completely different means, often pulling in different political directions, that most attempts at disinformation are discovered sooner rather than later.
- Mikeb85 12y ago
  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent We in the west are far more brainwashed than we think...
  - cnp 12y ago
    Yeah, so true. Its not like all of our news is being piped through top-level editorial departments of major corporate conglomerations or anything, or this video of dozens of news anchors reading a shared script is real.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStpvviPgxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStpvviPgxk
  - bayesianhorse 12y ago
    If you know you are brainwashed, you obviously know the "truth". So how come you know the truth but believe the truth isn't told? You see my point?
    - Mikeb85 12y ago
      > If you know you are brainwashed, you obviously know the "truth". We never really know the truth. I can tell you what I ate this morning, and I can tell you that the sky is blue (maybe blue-greyish today). The point is that too many people believe what they see on CNN, and assume it's the absolute truth. People base their world view upon curated news without questioning anything. Here's a great interview by Larry King on his Ora TV network (re-broadcast online by RT): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv2f6ZZmx4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv2f6ZZmx4A In it, Stephen Cohen (the guest) makes the point that there's little debate in the western media these days. Either you agree, or you agree more. No one questions anything anymore. Russians will tell you everything is a lie not because everything in Russia IS a lie (some things are, some aren't - much like over here), but because it's part of Russian culture, their outlook on the world, to be cynical and critical of everything. One poster brought up that RT is trying to discredit everything, but that's not really correct. Russians question everything, it's a part of slavic culture, hell my 92 year old Ukrainian grandfather who's been here his whole life shares that outlook. We in the west though have been transformed into gullible sheep, who question nothing we're told because we are comfortable working our 9-5 (more like 7-6) job to pay off our credit cards and debt, while watching shitty TV shows and never finding the motivation to ever learn about anything...

lawl 12y ago

> During Mr. Putin’s first stint in the presidency, slick techniques imported from the West helped engineer a spectacular rise in his approval ratings (emphasis mine)

efbbbf 12y ago

Well, with Russia's already severe lack of independent media or freedom of speech and the active repression of both, things are certainly looking a lot bleaker than anywhere in the west, including the US.

calibraxis 12y ago
The problem with US propaganda (like New York Times) is the US is the far more powerful mafia boss than say Russia. (Just look at militant attacks which reach across the world, not to mention incarceration.) Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. (As this is a US-dominated forum.)
- nothrabannosir 12y ago
  How much karma do you need on HN to downvote? Because this deserves one. How often are we going to repeat this point? Okay, as slowly and clearly as I can: "Two wrongs don't make a right." Just because the US does bad thing X, doesn't mean we can't talk about another country doing bad thing X. Please, for the love of baby Jesus and his family. Please. Please. I won't even top it off with a "the country's people are not the same as its government," or anything like it. I just beg of you, please, please stop using this line of reasoning. I'm so exhausted of seeing it. It wears me down. PS: GP has a point, he sketches the context. Fine. "Russia is not the only one, also US." Okay, it's true. But when you say "don't talk about Russia, because US!" then no. No, no, no, no. No. EDIT: Can't reply to "rational-future", so I'll say it here: No, not at all. The opposite. As I said: "GP has a point". My problem is here: > Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. This is wrong. Telling people to shut up because their government / countrymen / ... does the same thing. Sure, call them out for being hypocrites. But even hypocrites have a right to speak. So, yeah: do talk about the US. Sure. Give me context. As long as you leave all the room for the original discussion.
  - rational-future 12y ago
    So you're saying "Don't talk US, because Russia"?
    - deleted 12y ago
      [deleted]
    - mahranch 12y ago
      I feel like you completely missed the point of his comment. Probably purposefully. To answer your question, just because something is "wrong" doesn't mean something can't be more "wrong". Just because I jaywalked yesteday doesn't mean I'm on the same level as a meth dealer, for example. Life isn't black and white, it's shades of grey. Something can be much darker than another thing. And it's OK to point that out. As is the case here. The U.S media certainly isn't up to snuff, but the situation in Russia and other state-owned news agenicies are absolutely horrible by comparison. There may be poverty in the U.S but that doesn't mean it's on the same level as in a country like Ethiopia. As much as the Russian defenders want to equate the two, they are NOT comparable.
- deleted 12y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 12y ago
  Furthermore, people should be concerned with their own country's criminality, not hypocritically pointing the finger at official enemies like Russia. It's only hypocritical if you don't also point the finger at your own flaws. Which people in this forum do. A lot. Besides, not everyone agrees anymore with the notion that they must "have a country". What's my country? I have double nationality, and I live in an union of 28 countries. Lots of us work and live moving from country to country. And I feel more at home with some people here than with the average citizen of my city. I still hold a soft spot for the place I grew up in, but I don't consider myself tied to it. It's not mine, nor do I belong to it. EDIT: My ignorance was showing. Thanks, Atropos.
  - Atropos 12y ago
    Small nitpick: EU has 28 member states, everybody always forgets about Croatia :)

astazangasta 12y ago

Let's never forget the aggressive narrative-peddling by New York Times that brought us into war in Iraq.

blumkvist 12y ago

Nice commenting history.

bayesianhorse 12y ago

No, actually it doesn't... This stuff may be going on inside Fox News, and I doubt that. But that would be a single TV channel. In Russia they coordinate among all TV channels and there is no dissenting voice. The superiority of western media over what is available from Russia or similar countries is not in the honesty and quality of any single media outfit, but in the plurality of media voices. In the west, there are so many channels, shows, magazines and online sites, financed by completely different means, often pulling in different political directions, that most attempts at disinformation are discovered sooner rather than later.

Mikeb85 12y ago
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_Consent We in the west are far more brainwashed than we think...
- cnp 12y ago
  Yeah, so true. Its not like all of our news is being piped through top-level editorial departments of major corporate conglomerations or anything, or this video of dozens of news anchors reading a shared script is real.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStpvviPgxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PStpvviPgxk
- bayesianhorse 12y ago
  If you know you are brainwashed, you obviously know the "truth". So how come you know the truth but believe the truth isn't told? You see my point?
  - Mikeb85 12y ago
    > If you know you are brainwashed, you obviously know the "truth". We never really know the truth. I can tell you what I ate this morning, and I can tell you that the sky is blue (maybe blue-greyish today). The point is that too many people believe what they see on CNN, and assume it's the absolute truth. People base their world view upon curated news without questioning anything. Here's a great interview by Larry King on his Ora TV network (re-broadcast online by RT): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv2f6ZZmx4A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wv2f6ZZmx4A In it, Stephen Cohen (the guest) makes the point that there's little debate in the western media these days. Either you agree, or you agree more. No one questions anything anymore. Russians will tell you everything is a lie not because everything in Russia IS a lie (some things are, some aren't - much like over here), but because it's part of Russian culture, their outlook on the world, to be cynical and critical of everything. One poster brought up that RT is trying to discredit everything, but that's not really correct. Russians question everything, it's a part of slavic culture, hell my 92 year old Ukrainian grandfather who's been here his whole life shares that outlook. We in the west though have been transformed into gullible sheep, who question nothing we're told because we are comfortable working our 9-5 (more like 7-6) job to pay off our credit cards and debt, while watching shitty TV shows and never finding the motivation to ever learn about anything...