5 ms·
1. The Baltic states, Poland, everyone except the southern countries (and I assume Spain with a thriving economy in 2014/2015 will join the club when unemployme
by bibabo 12y ago
1. The Baltic states, Poland, everyone except the southern countries (and I assume Spain with a thriving economy in 2014/2015 will join the club when unemployment drops) is on the same page. But as an excellent demagogue Tsipras knows he needs a simple enemy (Germany) to rally the mob.
2. Yes Germany defaulted, but did not make it it's modus operandi.
Excellent that you've brought up the Marshall plan:
The Marshall plan was essentially the same as what the EU imposes on Greece: "The Marshall Plan required a lessening of interstate barriers, a dropping of many petty regulations constraining business, and encouraged increase productivity, labour union membership, and the adoption of modern business procedures."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan
Where it differed: Beside that the Marshall Plan required European countries (beside Germany e.g. France, Britain, essentially everyone else) to buy from US companies: "Much of the Marshall Plan aid would be used by the Europeans to buy manufactured goods and raw materials from the United States and Canada. [...] The Marshall Plan aid was mostly used for the purchase of goods from the United States" (Same source)
Last interesting tidbit from the Marshall plan "The first substantial aid went to Greece and Turkey in January 1947".
(Same source)
Indeed Greece got nearly twice the money from the Marhsall plan per person compared to Germany.
(For comparision Germany got 1.5B, Greece 0.4B, UK 3.3B, France 2.3B)
2. On war damages: I agree they were not paid and I agree with you on moral grounds, but I'm not sure it is economically relevant. The billions from the EU and the (2015 Euro) Marshall plan did not help, so I would not assume paying war damages would put Greece in a different situation. Except perhaps this makes Germany (see 1) a nice enemy.
While we're at war damages, I don't think Greece has paid war damages for any of the wars it started over the last 2500 years. The invasion of Turkey, the baltic war or going back to the support of Alexander the Great - I wonder if Greece paid war damages to Iran for that. Or to Italy for the occupation and exploitation of Sicily (or the other colonies when Greece was an imperialistic colonial power house). So while I agree that Germany should have paid damages on moral grounds, this is a very slippery slope.
3. Tax cheaters always find moral explainations for their behaviour.
- atmosx 12y agoGermany defaulted 3 times in 100 years, you can find the dates on Google (if you can't let me know, I'll help you). Greece has defaulted 3 times (actually 4 counting 2010). I'd say it's a modus operandi. One even might assume that making world wars is a modus operandi given the fact that it happened twice the last century. > 3. Tax cheaters always find moral explainations for their behaviour. So does anyone else[1] [2] [3] (there are least another 4 well known cases). [1] https://anestis.quora.com/Links-to-credible-sources-about-Greek-euro-crisis https://anestis.quora.com/Links-to-credible-sources-about-Gr... [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_Greek_bribery_scandal [3] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military-spending-debt-crisis http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/19/greece-military...
- bibabo 12y agoAbout the modus operandi: Greece in years of financial crisis http://uk.businessinsider.com/greece-spends-90-years-in-default-2015-2?r=US http://uk.businessinsider.com/greece-spends-90-years-in-defa...
- peterfirefly 12y agoOn the other hand, most of the German war reparations after WWI should probably be repaid. The exception is whatever Germany paid to Belgium, which should be augmented with reparations from France and Great Britain. (And I assume you meant Balkan instead of Baltic.)
- bibabo 12y agoI agree Germany should pay war reperations. As should Greece to Turkey and the Balkan for their invasions there, as should France to Germany for the napoleonic wars, Sweden to my hometown where they've killed nearly everyone and razed the city, the US for Vietnam to Laos. All the colonial powers should pay what they stole from their colonies, the UK to India, France to Africa. The US to the Philipines. France and the UK should pay and clean up the mess they've created in the middle east. I totally agree.
- atmosx 12y agoLOL, you can go as back as Sparta if you like but the fact remains: NO other country started 2 WWs.
- peterfirefly 12y agoThe German battles in WWI were defensive. That they happened outside the borders of Germany doesn't change that.
- bibabo 12y ago[Added] The US should return the land to the natives.
- bibabo 12y ago@atmosx: So your point is, only WW reperations need to be paid, if you invade a neighbour and massacre the people there, you needn't? Looks a little too specialized to be a general moral rule.
- 12y ago
- antman 12y agoThe Marshall plan in Greece included a huge sum to buying weapons to fend off communism which were not useful and did not go to any Greek. There was no industrial development in Greece. That was not the case in Germany, it got the funds and more importantly the new technology for steel production that helped the Germany. Germans were needed as strong stopping force against the Communists. I dont know if at that early stages it benefited the German people.
- bibabo 12y agoSome notes: 1. From the payment date of 1947 it looks more like it went into the Greek civil war - fought by Greeks against Greeks (1946-1949). Tough decision to have another war after devastating WWII. 2. Germany bought weapons for the newly built "Bundeswehr" - most of them from the US.