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I'm not sure anyone tried a really Marxist society on any scale. I think the hippie communes were getting there. Any communist/marxist country (basically any co

by kghose 12y ago

I'm not sure anyone tried a really Marxist society on any scale. I think the hippie communes were getting there. Any communist/marxist country (basically any country with the word "Democratic" in its name) was basically state capitalist. The state (a small number of elites) owned the means of production with the people as inefficient, unmotivated labor.

nickik 12y ago
Many people tried Marsism on a scale, but non of them managed to scala so it changed. By this very effect marxist are able to say 'marxism was not realy tried at scala'. > Any communist/marxist country (basically any country with the word "Democratic" in its name) Democratic is much older then marxism. Dont spread lies. > was basically state capitalist Revolutionarys with the EXPRES goal of marism took power and then transform them self into dictatorships. These dictatorships are then named 'state capitalist' to avoid self reflection on the marxist parts. How can a system that was created by stealing and centralising everybodys private property be capitalist, thats the exact opposite. Just because the state is dominated by a elite and this elite has simular powers over property (right to profit, controll and transact) it is not in any way capitalist. > people as inefficient, unmotivated labor. The labor was unmotivated and inefficient because these countrys did a horrible job at building a system that provided for the very people they clamed to protoct and thus these people were very much in the mood for another change. As response to this these marxist revolutionary quickly turn into 'state capitalist'. The Communist policys of 1919-1921 where so terrible that lenin, trosky and bukharin agree that they had to come up with something diffrent as fast as possible, whitch lead Bukahrin to rewritte the hole system in the next 2 month and the NEP was born. This NEP was very much a return to pre 1917 (and people in ruissa had jokes about this) and it was a system that was completly unable to reach the partys goal (rapid industrialisation) anytime soon. So this is just on example, Bukahrin had for years thought about how he would like a economic system to work, in a couple of month in 1921 he rewrote his ideals to something that was in many ways a return to zarist economics. Ideal fall out of the window when you need to stay in power and that is exactly why 'real marixm tm' has never been tried in the view of marxists.
- cbd1984 12y ago
  >> Any communist/marxist country (basically any country with the word "Democratic" in its name) > Democratic is much older then marxism. Dont spread lies. That isn't what the quote you responded to was saying. It means "If the country has the exact string 'Democratic' in its name, it was/is communist/Marxist". For example, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. > These dictatorships are then named 'state capitalist' to avoid self reflection on the marxist parts. This is dishonest, because it means Marxism can never fail: If it fails, it's "state capitalist" (a nonsense category), and was never Marxist to begin with! It's just a lie to keep Marxism from ever looking bad.
  - nickik 12y ago
    Ah I see what you mean. > This is dishonest ... I made exactly the same argument as you.
    - kghose 12y ago
      And I made the same argument as you! :) Practically speaking, whenever communism or some flavor of it was tried in scale they ended up running a large monopolar corporation, which they called "the state". It was state capitalism because the state owned all the capital. Capitalism, is short for "private capital" a strange form of communism where anyone can own the means of production if they figure out how to. The United States, for all its flaws, is really the only country where ANYBODY, and I mean ANYBODY, with enough gumption can become a major owner of capital.

by kghose 12y ago

nickik 12y ago

Many people tried Marsism on a scale, but non of them managed to scala so it changed. By this very effect marxist are able to say 'marxism was not realy tried at scala'. > Any communist/marxist country (basically any country with the word "Democratic" in its name) Democratic is much older then marxism. Dont spread lies. > was basically state capitalist Revolutionarys with the EXPRES goal of marism took power and then transform them self into dictatorships. These dictatorships are then named 'state capitalist' to avoid self reflection on the marxist parts. How can a system that was created by stealing and centralising everybodys private property be capitalist, thats the exact opposite. Just because the state is dominated by a elite and this elite has simular powers over property (right to profit, controll and transact) it is not in any way capitalist. > people as inefficient, unmotivated labor. The labor was unmotivated and inefficient because these countrys did a horrible job at building a system that provided for the very people they clamed to protoct and thus these people were very much in the mood for another change. As response to this these marxist revolutionary quickly turn into 'state capitalist'. The Communist policys of 1919-1921 where so terrible that lenin, trosky and bukharin agree that they had to come up with something diffrent as fast as possible, whitch lead Bukahrin to rewritte the hole system in the next 2 month and the NEP was born. This NEP was very much a return to pre 1917 (and people in ruissa had jokes about this) and it was a system that was completly unable to reach the partys goal (rapid industrialisation) anytime soon. So this is just on example, Bukahrin had for years thought about how he would like a economic system to work, in a couple of month in 1921 he rewrote his ideals to something that was in many ways a return to zarist economics. Ideal fall out of the window when you need to stay in power and that is exactly why 'real marixm tm' has never been tried in the view of marxists.

cbd1984 12y ago
>> Any communist/marxist country (basically any country with the word "Democratic" in its name) > Democratic is much older then marxism. Dont spread lies. That isn't what the quote you responded to was saying. It means "If the country has the exact string 'Democratic' in its name, it was/is communist/Marxist". For example, the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. > These dictatorships are then named 'state capitalist' to avoid self reflection on the marxist parts. This is dishonest, because it means Marxism can never fail: If it fails, it's "state capitalist" (a nonsense category), and was never Marxist to begin with! It's just a lie to keep Marxism from ever looking bad.
- nickik 12y ago
  Ah I see what you mean. > This is dishonest ... I made exactly the same argument as you.
  - kghose 12y ago
    And I made the same argument as you! :) Practically speaking, whenever communism or some flavor of it was tried in scale they ended up running a large monopolar corporation, which they called "the state". It was state capitalism because the state owned all the capital. Capitalism, is short for "private capital" a strange form of communism where anyone can own the means of production if they figure out how to. The United States, for all its flaws, is really the only country where ANYBODY, and I mean ANYBODY, with enough gumption can become a major owner of capital.