6 ms·

What about forging documents to get accepted in the eurozone? Forging documents to get more loans? The rampant corruption on every level of the Greek society? [

by fuj 12y ago

What about forging documents to get accepted in the eurozone? Forging documents to get more loans? The rampant corruption on every level of the Greek society? [1] Obviously this is not politically correct, so downvotes are expected. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_and_corruption_in_Greece http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion_and_corruption_in_G...

arethuza 12y ago
What about working with Goldman Sachs to hide the true level of debt that Greece had from Eurostat? http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis...
- harywilke 12y ago
  Legal at the time. Same thing the Italians did.
seliopou 12y ago
Not to justify the practice, but pretty much every periphery country fudged the numbers in order to be admitted to the Eurozone because none of them had a strong enough economy then to be let in. One did it, then the next looked at the last one and said "If them, why not us?" Greece is pretty corrupt though.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >Not to justify the practice, but pretty much every periphery country fudged the numbers in order to be admitted to the Eurozone because none of them had a strong enough economy then to be let in. One did it, then the next looked at the last one and said "If them, why not us?" The real fun starts when Greece defaults and Italy/France/Spain/Ireland/etc. go... If them, why not us?
  - lmm 12y ago
    The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that's the reason Greece is being forced to go through painful austerity measures even though everyone knows they won't work. The system survived a Greek defaul^H^Hvoluntary restructuring, but it wouldn't survive every country doing that, so the Greeks have to be seen to suffer.
    - crdoconnor 12y ago
      That's not really a conspiracy theory - it's pretty much all in the open. The ECB and European Commission (even the IMF!) don't pretend that austerity works, they just pretend that there's no alternative and periodically tell us that the seeds of recovery have sprouted. Why they do it is another matter. Theories I've heard: * (like you said) They want Greece to be an example for the other periphery countries. * It is used as a pretext to chip away at Greek sovereignty and give the (unlected) European commission additional powers over the country. * The core banks' insolvency becomes totally apparent if Greece defaults, so they pressure the ECB to keep up the charade that it's all necessary. * It's used as an excuse to sell off valuable Greek state assets on the cheap to politically connected individuals and companies. * Or all of the above.
kalkin 12y ago
Politicians from parties who now get 3-4% of the vote lied years ago (to the Greek public as well as EU bankers), so let's take Greek workers' pensions, crush their unions, slash their social services, and offer no jobs or future to 60% of Greek young people. The bankers may not get their money anyway, since the debt is still increasing, but at least the Greeks* will get what they deserve! *may not apply to the elites who actually bankrupted the country, who don't rely on government services and can keep their money in Swiss accounts
- fromtheoutside 12y ago
  Would be better to take this money from the Greek oligarchs and keep some level of social safety net. But isn't it up to the Greeks to make that happen?
  - kalkin 12y ago
    Yup, and I'm rooting for them.
  - atmosx 12y ago
    Oh well, we did on Jan 25 ;)
- arethuza 12y ago
  Out of interest, where do you think the money to pay for pensions, social services and create jobs for young people will come from in Greece in the future? Surely these all have to be set at a level that is actually sustainable by the Greek economy?
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    If they stop making interest repayments that will free up a lot of Euros. Additionally, if you don't pay for pensions, social services and create jobs then people don't have any money. If they don't have any money they don't spend. And not spending isn't sustainable for any economy.
  - 12y ago
crdoconnor 12y ago
These things are not solely responsible for the ruinous state of the Greek economy, which can be proven very easily: Every periphery economy suffered from the same economic malaise caused by a housing boom, a crash, a bailout of their banking sectors and austerity imposed from above (all actions ordered by Brussels). Yet Greece was the only one that played silly games with Goldman Sachs to get accepted (for which nobody has been punished except the Greek people).

by fuj 12y ago

arethuza 12y ago

What about working with Goldman Sachs to hide the true level of debt that Greece had from Eurostat? http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis-how-goldman-sachs-helped-greece-to-mask-its-true-debt-a-676634.html http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/greek-debt-crisis...

harywilke 12y ago
Legal at the time. Same thing the Italians did.

seliopou 12y ago

Not to justify the practice, but pretty much every periphery country fudged the numbers in order to be admitted to the Eurozone because none of them had a strong enough economy then to be let in. One did it, then the next looked at the last one and said "If them, why not us?" Greece is pretty corrupt though.

crdoconnor 12y ago
>Not to justify the practice, but pretty much every periphery country fudged the numbers in order to be admitted to the Eurozone because none of them had a strong enough economy then to be let in. One did it, then the next looked at the last one and said "If them, why not us?" The real fun starts when Greece defaults and Italy/France/Spain/Ireland/etc. go... If them, why not us?
- lmm 12y ago
  The conspiracy theorist in me suspects that's the reason Greece is being forced to go through painful austerity measures even though everyone knows they won't work. The system survived a Greek defaul^H^Hvoluntary restructuring, but it wouldn't survive every country doing that, so the Greeks have to be seen to suffer.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    That's not really a conspiracy theory - it's pretty much all in the open. The ECB and European Commission (even the IMF!) don't pretend that austerity works, they just pretend that there's no alternative and periodically tell us that the seeds of recovery have sprouted. Why they do it is another matter. Theories I've heard: * (like you said) They want Greece to be an example for the other periphery countries. * It is used as a pretext to chip away at Greek sovereignty and give the (unlected) European commission additional powers over the country. * The core banks' insolvency becomes totally apparent if Greece defaults, so they pressure the ECB to keep up the charade that it's all necessary. * It's used as an excuse to sell off valuable Greek state assets on the cheap to politically connected individuals and companies. * Or all of the above.

kalkin 12y ago

Politicians from parties who now get 3-4% of the vote lied years ago (to the Greek public as well as EU bankers), so let's take Greek workers' pensions, crush their unions, slash their social services, and offer no jobs or future to 60% of Greek young people. The bankers may not get their money anyway, since the debt is still increasing, but at least the Greeks* will get what they deserve! *may not apply to the elites who actually bankrupted the country, who don't rely on government services and can keep their money in Swiss accounts

fromtheoutside 12y ago
Would be better to take this money from the Greek oligarchs and keep some level of social safety net. But isn't it up to the Greeks to make that happen?
- kalkin 12y ago
  Yup, and I'm rooting for them.
- atmosx 12y ago
  Oh well, we did on Jan 25 ;)
arethuza 12y ago
Out of interest, where do you think the money to pay for pensions, social services and create jobs for young people will come from in Greece in the future? Surely these all have to be set at a level that is actually sustainable by the Greek economy?
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  If they stop making interest repayments that will free up a lot of Euros. Additionally, if you don't pay for pensions, social services and create jobs then people don't have any money. If they don't have any money they don't spend. And not spending isn't sustainable for any economy.
- 12y ago

crdoconnor 12y ago

These things are not solely responsible for the ruinous state of the Greek economy, which can be proven very easily: Every periphery economy suffered from the same economic malaise caused by a housing boom, a crash, a bailout of their banking sectors and austerity imposed from above (all actions ordered by Brussels). Yet Greece was the only one that played silly games with Goldman Sachs to get accepted (for which nobody has been punished except the Greek people).