5 ms·

If you're making an order of magnitude more than minimum wage that puts you at $72.50 per hour, or about $145k per year. That might not sound like a lot to the

by rcoder 12y ago

If you're making an order of magnitude more than minimum wage that puts you at $72.50 per hour, or about $145k per year. That might not sound like a lot to the regulars on this site, but it's almost triple the median US household income ($52k) and should put you comfortably in the middle class in almost any developed part of the world. You also probably don't have to worry about getting sick or injured (health insurance and sick leave are basically assumed in most careers that pay >$100k/year), getting access to money (whether savings or credit) for emergencies, or being able to support a loved one when they have problems. There's nothing "glamorous" about scraping by month to month, working an hourly job with no benefits or paid leave, or having to lie to get access to social services to support your family. It might not be as bad as living in medieval-era poverty, but it's still miles away from your six-figure professional lifestyle. Life can be (and often is!) fine day-to-day when you're poor, but the complete lack of an effective safety net means the difference between "doing okay" and "living on the street with no options" is razor-thin.

morgante 12y ago
To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight of the advances which centuries of development have brought us. An order of magnitude income differential no longer connotes an order of magnitude difference in lifestyle. At least for young single men, it seems like there's almost no difference in lifestyle based on salary.
- joelhooks 12y ago
  I'm going to call bullshit on this, as I currently rest well above a single order of magnitude beyond minimum wage. Life is awesome. I own a business. We have health coverage. We eat high quality nutrient rich food. We take our 4 kids to a lake house for a month every year. I work when I feel like it. We travel globally. I've got more options than I ever thought possible. Sure, sitting around getting loaded smoking cigarettes is Fun. This is better. A lot better.
  - morgante 12y ago
    Okay, but if you can afford not to work ("I work when I feel like it") you're not in the middle class, you're upper class. Compared to solidly middle class people, your life is also much better.
    - joelhooks 12y ago
      No doubt. I've experienced the spectrum.
- rcoder 12y ago
  If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. That being said, I still believe you're underestimating just how much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income. I personally have very clear memories of the years where I worried constantly about finding and keeping enough work to pay rent, left problems with my health unaddressed because I couldn't afford to fix them, and stayed in a bad relationship because my partner had a place to me to stay and a car I could take to job interviews. If you had asked me then I would have said my life was fine b/c I had friends, plenty of cheap beer, and didn't really know any better. Now that I'm also solidly in the middle class and can afford luxuries like an entire house I share with just my wife, regular meals out, and leisure travel I would describe those years as "strained" and "challenging" at best.
  - morgante 12y ago
    > If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. I guess maybe I'm just not allocating my money intelligently, but it really doesn't feel like my life is much better than "poor" young people. My university friends who survive on a $4000/semester stipend don't seem any less happy or contented than me. If anything, more so. > much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income. Admittedly, I don't really worry about the effect of losing my job. I could probably sustain myself for a few years off my savings. But, on the flip side, having a "professional" job is also much more all-encompassing. I doubt people working at McDonalds frequently wake up with thoughts about new strategic directions and methods for flipping burgers, but I am. In exchange for the stability which a high salary brings, I'm always thinking about work.
    - pharke 12y ago
      I think someone flipping burgers at McDonalds would trade waking up thinking about work for waking up and thinking about how they'll feed their children any day of the week. Also, the concept of being able to sustain your current lifestyle for a few years on your savings alone makes you sound like you're from another planet to someone making minimum wage with the savings and benefits that entails. It also doesn't appear to jive with your earlier statement about managing your money in such a way that your day to day finances would be in any way similar to someone earning $10 hourly. Where I come from, having enough money for beer and weed might mean you've got $20 to your name, not a savings account with enough for rent and expenses for the next 2 years. Edit: Your friends at university might appear to have a fairly similar lifestyle to yours on the measly sum of $4000 per semester given the fact that university life generally comes accompanied by prepaid meal plans, health insurance, counselling, housing, on campus services and student discounts. Such amenities are a far off dream to those below the poverty line.

by rcoder 12y ago

morgante 12y ago

To be clear, I'm well aware that what I make places me comfortably into the upper middle class. My point was simply that my life generally doesn't seem much/any better than joelhooks's ostensibly "poor" life. I might have health insurance, but I haven't used it once. Even though I have sick leave at work, I'd probably never take it (preferring to work remotely). I guess my main point is that we shouldn't lose sight of the advances which centuries of development have brought us. An order of magnitude income differential no longer connotes an order of magnitude difference in lifestyle. At least for young single men, it seems like there's almost no difference in lifestyle based on salary.

joelhooks 12y ago
I'm going to call bullshit on this, as I currently rest well above a single order of magnitude beyond minimum wage. Life is awesome. I own a business. We have health coverage. We eat high quality nutrient rich food. We take our 4 kids to a lake house for a month every year. I work when I feel like it. We travel globally. I've got more options than I ever thought possible. Sure, sitting around getting loaded smoking cigarettes is Fun. This is better. A lot better.
- morgante 12y ago
  Okay, but if you can afford not to work ("I work when I feel like it") you're not in the middle class, you're upper class. Compared to solidly middle class people, your life is also much better.
  - joelhooks 12y ago
    No doubt. I've experienced the spectrum.
rcoder 12y ago
If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. That being said, I still believe you're underestimating just how much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income. I personally have very clear memories of the years where I worried constantly about finding and keeping enough work to pay rent, left problems with my health unaddressed because I couldn't afford to fix them, and stayed in a bad relationship because my partner had a place to me to stay and a car I could take to job interviews. If you had asked me then I would have said my life was fine b/c I had friends, plenty of cheap beer, and didn't really know any better. Now that I'm also solidly in the middle class and can afford luxuries like an entire house I share with just my wife, regular meals out, and leisure travel I would describe those years as "strained" and "challenging" at best.
- morgante 12y ago
  > If you honestly believe your lifestyle is no different from someone getting by on $10 per hour then I doubt there's much I can do to dissuade you. I guess maybe I'm just not allocating my money intelligently, but it really doesn't feel like my life is much better than "poor" young people. My university friends who survive on a $4000/semester stipend don't seem any less happy or contented than me. If anything, more so. > much more stability and confidence you have as a product of your income. Admittedly, I don't really worry about the effect of losing my job. I could probably sustain myself for a few years off my savings. But, on the flip side, having a "professional" job is also much more all-encompassing. I doubt people working at McDonalds frequently wake up with thoughts about new strategic directions and methods for flipping burgers, but I am. In exchange for the stability which a high salary brings, I'm always thinking about work.
  - pharke 12y ago
    I think someone flipping burgers at McDonalds would trade waking up thinking about work for waking up and thinking about how they'll feed their children any day of the week. Also, the concept of being able to sustain your current lifestyle for a few years on your savings alone makes you sound like you're from another planet to someone making minimum wage with the savings and benefits that entails. It also doesn't appear to jive with your earlier statement about managing your money in such a way that your day to day finances would be in any way similar to someone earning $10 hourly. Where I come from, having enough money for beer and weed might mean you've got $20 to your name, not a savings account with enough for rent and expenses for the next 2 years. Edit: Your friends at university might appear to have a fairly similar lifestyle to yours on the measly sum of $4000 per semester given the fact that university life generally comes accompanied by prepaid meal plans, health insurance, counselling, housing, on campus services and student discounts. Such amenities are a far off dream to those below the poverty line.