7 ms·

This is a bit of the stretch. Philadelphia is a complex city with complex problems and its police department reflects this. It has plenty of problems but it als

This is a bit of the stretch. Philadelphia is a complex city with complex problems and its police department reflects this. It has plenty of problems but it also has a lot of cops who care.

existencebox 12y ago
Growing up in Philly, that was not the perception of the kids who got thrown into dumpsters during a police raid on a prom. This is anecdotal, but in one of the hotbeds of police/citizen conflict, I don't think it serves a purpose to try and pull the "there are always good ones" card. Yes, there are, but until the systemic problems are dealt with they aren't the ones having an impact.
- pluma 12y ago
  There were good Wehrmacht soldiers, too. Can't blame Allied soldiers for shooting at them, though. I'm saying that as a German, mind you.
  - existencebox 12y ago
    This is absolutely a complete and utter tangent but you touched on something I've really been wondering about: Watching a lot of ken burns lately, heard him tell quite a few stories of German regular army officers going out of their way to protect enemy combatants/POWs from being killed/taken to death camps to the extent that there seemed to be quite the little power struggle from among the nazi ranks; naturally (but unfortunately) since it was an American documentary it wasn't the primary focus, but I'd love to hear of any german made documentaries that do justice to the "people" side of things from the non-american point of view. (maybe this is assumptive and rude but I figured a German on HN would be the best person to ask; hope it wasn't too out of place!)
    - pluma 12y ago
      I don't mind the question at all. But I'm not sure there are many German documentaries portraying German soldiers in WW2 in a positive light. There's a strong cultural fear of making Germans in the Third Reich appear too sympathetic, although I think this hinders properly understanding what got us into that situation in the first place (other than the "obvious" answer that Hitler and his nazi troupe mind controlled us and everybody suddenly became evil overnight) and how we can prevent similar things from happening in the future (aside from the "obvious" answer of censorship and knee-jerk overcompensation). A lot of the stories I'm aware of are hearsay, but it's not exactly easy to get reliable accounts about this kind of thing. One example is that in Eastern Europe in the early stages of WW2 the Wehrmacht soldiers would allegedly often not care much for the orders regarding the jews (they were just regular soldiers after all, often ones that had been soldiers before the nazis came to power) and would initially often be greeted with sympathy because the locals thought they came to kick the Soviets out. But then the Wehrmacht would often soon be followed by the SS who would of course be far less friendly to the civilians. As far as I can tell, things generally got progressively worse throughout WW2 as the older soldiers died out and were replaced by younger soldiers who had been raised under the nazi rule and were thus far more likely to just follow the orders and believe the ideology. An extreme example of this is the last ditch attempt at the end of the war where they tried to raise a militia of what were essentially still children to protect the mostly defeated fatherland against the "invaders". I think it helps to remember events like the Christmas truce in 1914 when thinking about WW2: yes, the nazis were far worse than any of the powers in the Great War before that, but initially a lot of the soldiers were simply German soldiers, not "nazi" soldiers. And even those that would eventually "earn" that label would often do so for far more complex reasons than just being "evil demon soldiers". For example, the idea of racial supremacy (which was popular in many other places than Germany at that time, btw) coupled with the economic changes caused by the seizure of Jewish properties, horrible as it was, meshed well with the less educated and less well-off segments of the population. If your life is in the gutter, it can be very uplifting to be told you're special because you're part of the master race. Especially if that is combined with a clear enemy (the treacherous Jews sabotaged the wealth you deserve) and what at that moment superficially seemed like a change for the better (look up the opinions of other European leaders about Hitler in the years before WW2 if you find the time -- it's pretty disconcerting). Basically, Hollywood tropes aside, I doubt that there were as many hardcore nazis as you'd think. There were a lot of war crimes and a lot of crimes against humanity, of course, and the Holocaust is one of the worst things that happened in the last century, but I don't think you need to be a truly evil person to do unspeakable things -- and IMO that's the real lesson here. As a German I'm anxious about the direction the US (in particular) is heading, not because I worry they could become Hollywood-style "evil" but because it's so easy to end up in a situation where you don't even realise what you're contributing to until sufficient time has passed. I'm certain most people who ended up contributing to the horrors of the Third Reich had no idea what they were doing even if from the perspective of today you'd think it must have been crystal clear to them at the time.
zo1 12y ago
>"[...]but it also has a lot of cops who care." Either they are outnumbered enough to not be able to make a difference, or they're in the majority and thus complicit in those immoral acts because they allow the minority (of "bad" cops) to go by unpunished. Which one is it? Is there something else at play that's preventing the majority (of "good" cops) from fixing the problem?
officemonkey 12y ago
I start with the assumption that "All Cops Are Bastards." It may be prejudicial, but it makes me think before I do anything that anyone could mistake for criminal activity. If this makes the "cops who care" uncomfortable, they should put the blame squarely on the "cops who don't care" not on me.
- sarciszewski 12y ago
  This sort of assumption is prejudicial, but it's the sort of cynicism that leads to erring on the side of caution and making sure your rights are respected. You can't trust most people, cops are no exception. In that regard, it might be viewed as pragmatic.
  - thanksgiving 12y ago
    I am sorry you're getting downvoted but this is absolutely right. Remember to never talk to the police. This sounds a little sarcastic but I promise you that it is not. Never, ever "help" the police, even if you are not a suspect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc The police do not have a duty to protect you [nytimes]. Why do you have a duty to help them? [nytimes] http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html (If you intend to downvote, please kindly leave a note as to why I am wrong.)
    - sarciszewski 12y ago
      I don't even know why that one got downvoted to oblivion.
      - iwouldwager 12y ago
        I would wager that it was this bit: "it's the sort of cynicism that leads to [...] making sure your rights are respected"
        12y ago

This is a bit of the stretch. Philadelphia is a complex city with complex problems and its police department reflects this. It has plenty of problems but it also has a lot of cops who care.

existencebox 12y ago

Growing up in Philly, that was not the perception of the kids who got thrown into dumpsters during a police raid on a prom. This is anecdotal, but in one of the hotbeds of police/citizen conflict, I don't think it serves a purpose to try and pull the "there are always good ones" card. Yes, there are, but until the systemic problems are dealt with they aren't the ones having an impact.

pluma 12y ago
There were good Wehrmacht soldiers, too. Can't blame Allied soldiers for shooting at them, though. I'm saying that as a German, mind you.
- existencebox 12y ago
  This is absolutely a complete and utter tangent but you touched on something I've really been wondering about: Watching a lot of ken burns lately, heard him tell quite a few stories of German regular army officers going out of their way to protect enemy combatants/POWs from being killed/taken to death camps to the extent that there seemed to be quite the little power struggle from among the nazi ranks; naturally (but unfortunately) since it was an American documentary it wasn't the primary focus, but I'd love to hear of any german made documentaries that do justice to the "people" side of things from the non-american point of view. (maybe this is assumptive and rude but I figured a German on HN would be the best person to ask; hope it wasn't too out of place!)
  - pluma 12y ago
    I don't mind the question at all. But I'm not sure there are many German documentaries portraying German soldiers in WW2 in a positive light. There's a strong cultural fear of making Germans in the Third Reich appear too sympathetic, although I think this hinders properly understanding what got us into that situation in the first place (other than the "obvious" answer that Hitler and his nazi troupe mind controlled us and everybody suddenly became evil overnight) and how we can prevent similar things from happening in the future (aside from the "obvious" answer of censorship and knee-jerk overcompensation). A lot of the stories I'm aware of are hearsay, but it's not exactly easy to get reliable accounts about this kind of thing. One example is that in Eastern Europe in the early stages of WW2 the Wehrmacht soldiers would allegedly often not care much for the orders regarding the jews (they were just regular soldiers after all, often ones that had been soldiers before the nazis came to power) and would initially often be greeted with sympathy because the locals thought they came to kick the Soviets out. But then the Wehrmacht would often soon be followed by the SS who would of course be far less friendly to the civilians. As far as I can tell, things generally got progressively worse throughout WW2 as the older soldiers died out and were replaced by younger soldiers who had been raised under the nazi rule and were thus far more likely to just follow the orders and believe the ideology. An extreme example of this is the last ditch attempt at the end of the war where they tried to raise a militia of what were essentially still children to protect the mostly defeated fatherland against the "invaders". I think it helps to remember events like the Christmas truce in 1914 when thinking about WW2: yes, the nazis were far worse than any of the powers in the Great War before that, but initially a lot of the soldiers were simply German soldiers, not "nazi" soldiers. And even those that would eventually "earn" that label would often do so for far more complex reasons than just being "evil demon soldiers". For example, the idea of racial supremacy (which was popular in many other places than Germany at that time, btw) coupled with the economic changes caused by the seizure of Jewish properties, horrible as it was, meshed well with the less educated and less well-off segments of the population. If your life is in the gutter, it can be very uplifting to be told you're special because you're part of the master race. Especially if that is combined with a clear enemy (the treacherous Jews sabotaged the wealth you deserve) and what at that moment superficially seemed like a change for the better (look up the opinions of other European leaders about Hitler in the years before WW2 if you find the time -- it's pretty disconcerting). Basically, Hollywood tropes aside, I doubt that there were as many hardcore nazis as you'd think. There were a lot of war crimes and a lot of crimes against humanity, of course, and the Holocaust is one of the worst things that happened in the last century, but I don't think you need to be a truly evil person to do unspeakable things -- and IMO that's the real lesson here. As a German I'm anxious about the direction the US (in particular) is heading, not because I worry they could become Hollywood-style "evil" but because it's so easy to end up in a situation where you don't even realise what you're contributing to until sufficient time has passed. I'm certain most people who ended up contributing to the horrors of the Third Reich had no idea what they were doing even if from the perspective of today you'd think it must have been crystal clear to them at the time.

zo1 12y ago

>"[...]but it also has a lot of cops who care." Either they are outnumbered enough to not be able to make a difference, or they're in the majority and thus complicit in those immoral acts because they allow the minority (of "bad" cops) to go by unpunished. Which one is it? Is there something else at play that's preventing the majority (of "good" cops) from fixing the problem?

officemonkey 12y ago

I start with the assumption that "All Cops Are Bastards." It may be prejudicial, but it makes me think before I do anything that anyone could mistake for criminal activity. If this makes the "cops who care" uncomfortable, they should put the blame squarely on the "cops who don't care" not on me.

sarciszewski 12y ago
This sort of assumption is prejudicial, but it's the sort of cynicism that leads to erring on the side of caution and making sure your rights are respected. You can't trust most people, cops are no exception. In that regard, it might be viewed as pragmatic.
- thanksgiving 12y ago
  I am sorry you're getting downvoted but this is absolutely right. Remember to never talk to the police. This sounds a little sarcastic but I promise you that it is not. Never, ever "help" the police, even if you are not a suspect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc The police do not have a duty to protect you [nytimes]. Why do you have a duty to help them? [nytimes] http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html (If you intend to downvote, please kindly leave a note as to why I am wrong.)
  - sarciszewski 12y ago
    I don't even know why that one got downvoted to oblivion.
    - iwouldwager 12y ago
      I would wager that it was this bit: "it's the sort of cynicism that leads to [...] making sure your rights are respected"
      - 12y ago