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Upper management look at code, ha! Every team I've been on has criticized each other's code equally harsh. If coding standards weren't followed (whoops, you m

Upper management look at code, ha! Every team I've been on has criticized each other's code equally harsh. If coding standards weren't followed (whoops, you missed a space between parenths, try again!) they'd be called out, if someone had a better idea for an implementation / approach, they were free to speak up and heard out. When I started out on one team I thought I was being unfairly criticized, until I saw others make the same mistakes I was and boom, they received the same feedback. As time went on and I was able to better follow agreed upon standards, and my implementations (and test cases) improved in quality, I was called out less and less, unless I made a mistake again. The focus in the reviews was always about the code and never who wrote the code - this is great because it helps break down the idea that the criticism is about the person rather than (correctly) the inert code. The point I'm alluding to in my OP is to is similar the debate/discussion about AI and spirituality [Jaron Lanier's essay here - http://edge.org/conversation/the-myth-of-ai http://edge.org/conversation/the-myth-of-ai]. When people frame this tech / gender discussion, it's always "gender issues in tech" and I think that is (pedantically) wrong. The technology (source code, compiler, CPU) have no native understanding of a user nor their identity. They treat the input exactly the same. A node interacting with another node. So it's not really "gender issues in tech" but rather, "gender issues in society, but with a focus on the technology industry / market" It's a pedantic point, but by not being explicitly clear in definitions and discussion framing, there tends to be a leakage of irrelevant facts/statistics/feelings that contaminates discussions and derails productive conversations. When that happens, discussions fall back into their usual talking points and counter-points rather than focusing on producing solutions.

dasil003 12y ago
You acknowledge that you have a pedantic hangup over the semantics of the phrase "gender issues in tech", and then you construct this elaborate straw man about how the technology itself is gender agnostic (which is not a revelation, it is true of literally all inanimate objects) and that the gender issues are in society as a whole. But what you haven't done is acknowledge that the tech industry has its own manifestation of sexism that is distinct from that of wider society, in some ways more pernicious, and in fact we've regressed in the last 20 years. I also have to say, the way that you constructed this whole argument perfectly illustrates why sexism is tech is a difficult problem: tech people tend to be smart and well-reasoned, and often have a liberal and egalitarian self-image, so it's very easy for them to construct a solid case for why they themselves could never be racist or sexist. All the while blissfully ignorant of the reality other people are experiencing. I'm deliberately not using the hot-button label for white males in this context because I think it's counter productive, but just stop for a minute a consider that your experience might not apply to everyone.
- mkal_tsr 12y ago
  It's not an elaborate strawman to want clearer definitions and a cleaner scope for discussion. Further you have not proven, > then you construct this elaborate straw man about how the technology itself is gender agnostic [...] and that the gender issues are in society as a whole is factually wrong. You admit that technology as a whole is gender agnostic, so you actually agree with my premise. And actually I have acknowledged that there is sexism in tech because it is progressed by individuals (read: people) that come from a society. That society provides the context to their actions and motivations, regardless of which industry they are employed in (though each industry will vary in specifics). When one limits the discussion to only the tech industry they prevent any comparisons to other industries, both at a specific point in time as well as long-term / trends, which limits the ability to judge and measure progress. Limiting the judging to merely internal progress means that one will be unsure if that industry is progressing faster or slower than other industries wrt whatever we're discussing (in this case, gender issues in tech). In addition, it prevents people from discussing where industry A has made progress that industry B can look to, or learn from the mistakes of industry C. That is not possible if the discussion is silo-ed within only a single industry. Also, what do Caucasians have to do with gender? That came out of no where, how is that relevant to this? You also seem to imply that I don't believe I could ever make a sexist comment or action, yet I never stated that, so why would you imply that? You're projecting yourself onto my words, please stop, it's disingenuous. Welp, here's a thesis that concludes that men who treat women equally are seen as treating women as inferiors - https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1 https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeu... So if that thesis can be reproduced, then all gender issues need to be reexamined as they'd be tainted by bias of treating men who treat women equally as men who are sexist. You haven't actually proven anything I've said to be incorrect, you've just tried to take it out of context and ignore some points here and there as a means to discredit my words and intentions. I'm sorry I treat people equally (we're all individual nodes in this big cog of society) and other people do not, but the fact remains, the framing of the discussion is inherently limiting to making progress by limiting the scope and depth of such a discussion.
  - acdha 12y ago

dasil003 12y ago

You acknowledge that you have a pedantic hangup over the semantics of the phrase "gender issues in tech", and then you construct this elaborate straw man about how the technology itself is gender agnostic (which is not a revelation, it is true of literally all inanimate objects) and that the gender issues are in society as a whole. But what you haven't done is acknowledge that the tech industry has its own manifestation of sexism that is distinct from that of wider society, in some ways more pernicious, and in fact we've regressed in the last 20 years. I also have to say, the way that you constructed this whole argument perfectly illustrates why sexism is tech is a difficult problem: tech people tend to be smart and well-reasoned, and often have a liberal and egalitarian self-image, so it's very easy for them to construct a solid case for why they themselves could never be racist or sexist. All the while blissfully ignorant of the reality other people are experiencing. I'm deliberately not using the hot-button label for white males in this context because I think it's counter productive, but just stop for a minute a consider that your experience might not apply to everyone.

mkal_tsr 12y ago
It's not an elaborate strawman to want clearer definitions and a cleaner scope for discussion. Further you have not proven, > then you construct this elaborate straw man about how the technology itself is gender agnostic [...] and that the gender issues are in society as a whole is factually wrong. You admit that technology as a whole is gender agnostic, so you actually agree with my premise. And actually I have acknowledged that there is sexism in tech because it is progressed by individuals (read: people) that come from a society. That society provides the context to their actions and motivations, regardless of which industry they are employed in (though each industry will vary in specifics). When one limits the discussion to only the tech industry they prevent any comparisons to other industries, both at a specific point in time as well as long-term / trends, which limits the ability to judge and measure progress. Limiting the judging to merely internal progress means that one will be unsure if that industry is progressing faster or slower than other industries wrt whatever we're discussing (in this case, gender issues in tech). In addition, it prevents people from discussing where industry A has made progress that industry B can look to, or learn from the mistakes of industry C. That is not possible if the discussion is silo-ed within only a single industry. Also, what do Caucasians have to do with gender? That came out of no where, how is that relevant to this? You also seem to imply that I don't believe I could ever make a sexist comment or action, yet I never stated that, so why would you imply that? You're projecting yourself onto my words, please stop, it's disingenuous. Welp, here's a thesis that concludes that men who treat women equally are seen as treating women as inferiors - https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeung_Amy.pdf?sequence=1 https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/bitstream/handle/10012/6958/Yeu... So if that thesis can be reproduced, then all gender issues need to be reexamined as they'd be tainted by bias of treating men who treat women equally as men who are sexist. You haven't actually proven anything I've said to be incorrect, you've just tried to take it out of context and ignore some points here and there as a means to discredit my words and intentions. I'm sorry I treat people equally (we're all individual nodes in this big cog of society) and other people do not, but the fact remains, the framing of the discussion is inherently limiting to making progress by limiting the scope and depth of such a discussion.
- acdha 12y ago