8 ms·

From what I could tell it quickly turned to a misogynist witch hunt with heavy doxxing and harassment and not a lot of actual substance

by hatu 12y ago

yarrel 12y ago
No that's how it started. Get the story right, people!
- probably_wrong 12y ago
  Maybe you are just trolling, or maybe you actually believe in what you say. I know I used to believe the "it's above games journalism" point of view, as I found it had plenty of merit. In case it's the second one, I have to tell you something: it really isn't about truth in games journalism. I know a lot of people think it is, but it truly isn't. Gamergate's sword are its misogynistic views and its coordinated attacks, while it's shield is the "games journalism" angle. If you truly believe you can separate one from the other, trust me, you can't.
  - Karunamon 12y ago
    Would you care to elaborate on this further? The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement are there to crap on female developers. If you have some deeper insights, I'd love for you to share them here. I find GG to be unfairly maligned - and given the fact that they've picked a fight with primarily huge, monied interests with mass media connections, I can see why. It doesn't even need to rise to the level of massive conspiracy.
    - probably_wrong 12y ago
      Sure thing. I agree with the stated purposes of GG: games journalism needs some serious balancing. For instance, that mailing list in which both journalists and producers are members is an example of a line that should exist and yet doesn't. Hech, even "game developer literally in bed with producers" is something that, properly approached (not the case AT ALL, of course), could have been a valid point. And yet, what is GG known for? They are being openly misogynistic, attacking anyone who dares speaking against them in a pretty serious way. Anita Sarkeesian and Felicia Day, to name two famous women, were doxxed and harrassed just for speaking openly. And just like you cannot say "X and Y belong to Anonymous, but Z doesn't", you cannot say "The misogynists are using GG as an excuse, but they are not true GGers", because they are GG (the same way that you are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic). So my point would be: If a group is full of jerks that are flocking towards a group erroneously, are they really in the wrong group?
      - mafribe 12y ago
        Who were Anita Sarkeesian and Felicia Day doxxed by? Maybe they did it themselves, or their friends did it. Have you got any evidence at all that this is not what happened. After all damseling-in-distress is very lucrative these days. Edit: Downvoters, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence?
        Karunamon 12y ago
        This double standard absolutely boggles my mind, especially in the company of the people who usually inhabit this website. What evidence is there that prominent GG detractors are receiving harassment for their views? Exactly the same amount of evidence that prominent GG supporters are receiving harassment for their views, yet for some reason, this standard is only applied against some people and not others. I want to know what that reason is, I want someone reasonable to explain that to me, and I hope beyond all hope it doesn't boil down to "because some of those people have media connections and some don't".
        MrDom 12y ago
    - devindotcom 12y ago
      People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more.
      - brymaster 12y ago
        > People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more. Oh the corrupt journos showed up. I wonder why. https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/521737847758663680 https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/521737847758663680
        devindotcom 12y ago
        yes, and we would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!!
        brymaster 12y ago
        You're quick to dismiss but you games and tech "journalists" collude, push agendas and fail to recuse yourselves from conflicts of interest all the while seeing nothing wrong with that. https://twitter.com/leighalexander/status/556905004632920064 https://twitter.com/leighalexander/status/556905004632920064 Games "journalism" has always been a stones throw away from advertising and you all don't have an ethical bone in you. Basic journalistic values such as skeptical inquiry, critical thinking or independent judgment are foreign concepts.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        MrDom 12y ago
        You're not as far off as you think. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/17/exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite/ http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/17/exposed-the-secre...
    - ijk 12y ago
      No, they're primarily picking fights with individuals and systematically distracting everyone from the actual corruption of monied interests. Every so-called ethics issue that GamerGate has highlighted has been a hugely overblown misinterpretation, while several major ethical issues, such as the attempt to tightly control what YouTubers could and could not say about Shadows of Mordor, were ignored by GamerGate. Major industry organizations have been forced to step up their efforts to protect innocent developers from GamerGate. I oppose GameGate because: * Every issue they've brought up has, without exception, been a minor quibble at best and an outright fabrication on the part of GamerGate at worst * GamerGate has, as a movement, systematically refused to decry the harassment or take any kind of practical steps to curb it * GamerGate uses charities as cover for their actions, and then DDOS the charities when the charities refuse to be used like that. * GamerGate is still, as a movement, entirely obsessed with three specific women * GamerGate uses anonymity for plausible deniability of its celebration of things like developer's dogs dying (multiple instances), SWATing (multiple instances), bomb threats (multiple instances).
      - mafribe 12y ago
        What concrete evidence have you for GG killing dogs, SWATing and bomb threats?
        ijk 12y ago
        I specifically said celebrating those things; Brianna Wu's dog died of natural causes. It's immensely hard to tie the events to specific people, and by design GamerGate is too slippery to pin an individual's membership or non-membership. But there is undoubtedly involvement by people who solicit an association with the GamerGate movement. If your anonymous imageboard thread gets regularly co-opted by trolls, maybe they're the real movement and you're the outsider. Celebrating dogs dying: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/brianna-wu-dog_n_6251242.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/brianna-wu-dog_n_62... http://www.dogster.com/the-scoop/brianna-wu-dog-dies-gamergate-abuse-harassment http://www.dogster.com/the-scoop/brianna-wu-dog-dies-gamerga... SWATing: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/13/gamergate-hits-new-low-with-attempts-to-send-swat-teams-to-critics http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/13/gamergate-... http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-attempt-to-attack-1677512916 http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-atte... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/baphomet https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/baphomet Bomb and Shooting Threats: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women... http://www.newsweek.com/feminist-video-game-critic-receives-bomb-threats-award-ceremony-271557 http://www.newsweek.com/feminist-video-game-critic-receives-... http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/anita-sarkeesian-forced-to-cancel-talk-over-shooti/1100-5045/ http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/anita-sarkeesian-forced-to... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/15/gamergate-feminist-video-game-critic-anita-sarkeesian-cancels-utah-lecture-after-threat-citing-police-inability-to-prevent-concealed-weapons-at-event/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/15... http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/17/anita-sarkeesian-gdc14-bomb-threat/ http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/17/anita-sarkeesian-gdc14-bo... http://www.cnet.com/news/anita-sarkeesian-cancels-speech-in-wake-of-threats/ http://www.cnet.com/news/anita-sarkeesian-cancels-speech-in-... https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/521072241673379840 https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/521072241673379840 http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/15/7551417/nightline-gamergate http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/15/7551417/nightline-gamergate http://zennistrad.tumblr.com/post/100805680213/analyzing-the-8chan-thread-and-usu-threat-to-anita http://zennistrad.tumblr.com/post/100805680213/analyzing-the... Other GamerGate-related information: http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/107838639074/august-never-ends http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/107838639074/august-nev... https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconceptions-thus-far/ https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconc... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/there-s-no-money-in-it https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/there-s-no-money-in-it https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-condones-harassment https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-condones-harass... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/how-gamergate-harasses-victims https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/how-gamergate-harasses-vi... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/why-i-still-oppose-gamergate https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/why-i-still-oppose-gamerg... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/actually-gamergate-is-about-ethics-in-game-journal https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/actually-gamergate-is-abo... http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s4e7-gamergate-7071206 http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s4e7-gamergate-7071206 http://www.zenofdesign.com/gamergate-hits-rock-bottom-keeps-digging/ http://www.zenofdesign.com/gamergate-hits-rock-bottom-keeps-...
    - lotsofmangos 12y ago
      I just assumed that the whole thing is just massive trolling, with the mark being anyone who takes any of it seriously.
    - _delirium 12y ago
      It's also the perception I have, mostly as a kind of observation of where the harassment seems to go (admittedly personal observation, not at all studying it systematically). I've spent a good amount of time mocking the gamergate set under my real name and nobody's done much to me. Trolling them is even a bit fun; it's sometimes a little unsporting, but sometimes it's amusing [1]. In related news, I'm a white male. Yet a number of my female colleagues have gotten torrents of abuse for much less criticism than I'm doing. That milieu seems to really smell red meat when someone who's a woman in tech says something they perceive as offending them. There is also a weird obsession with tracking down previous romantic/sexual partners of women who come across their radar, either for its own sake, or in hopes that the ex-boyfriend can be goaded into saying something negative. Whereas I can call them whatever I want with impunity. None of the gamergaters seem interested in tracking down a history of my sexual partners! Besides being gendered, the other bit I've noticed is that it seems very anglosphere. We had a brief discussion in class here (Denmark) about gamergate, which I was initially very cautious about because I didn't want to be leading, but it ended up mostly fizzling because afaict students just viewed it as foreign and not their problem. They didn't seem to view it as an active debate here that they should be for or against, but rather some weird debate in America that they could only shrug about (weird debates in America that you can only shrug about are a dime a dozen). Well, maybe America plus some tagging along from CA/UK/AU. That perception is probably strengthened by the fact that the high-profile "pro-gamergate" articles have come from right-wing Anglo-American media outlets like Breitbart Media, whose politics start from a position that's pretty weird/foreign by local standards. [1] There was a period when a bunch of people had a conspiracy theory about how DiGRA (http://www.digra.org/ http://www.digra.org/), a small and mostly ineffectual professional society for academics studying games, was taking over games. Being vaguely on the fringe of that organization provided good opportunities for trollish hashtagging (I attended a DiGRA conference once, which I believe made me a member for 1 year as a result of paying the conference registration fee). It was fun to imagine ourselves as all-powerful conspirators directing the future of games, when almost no game developers have even heard of the conference (much less read its papers), and the organization's powers are such that releasing a timely call for papers once a year remains an aspirational goal.
      - MrDom 12y ago
  - dsuth 12y ago
    I think what yarrel meant, is that GamerGate was always about misogynistic views and attacks, as has been described in a number of articles about its origins.

From what I could tell it quickly turned to a misogynist witch hunt with heavy doxxing and harassment and not a lot of actual substance

by hatu 12y ago

From what I could tell it quickly turned to a misogynist witch hunt with heavy doxxing and harassment and not a lot of actual substance

yarrel 12y ago

No that's how it started. Get the story right, people!

probably_wrong 12y ago
Maybe you are just trolling, or maybe you actually believe in what you say. I know I used to believe the "it's above games journalism" point of view, as I found it had plenty of merit. In case it's the second one, I have to tell you something: it really isn't about truth in games journalism. I know a lot of people think it is, but it truly isn't. Gamergate's sword are its misogynistic views and its coordinated attacks, while it's shield is the "games journalism" angle. If you truly believe you can separate one from the other, trust me, you can't.
- Karunamon 12y ago
  Would you care to elaborate on this further? The number of people who disagree with GamerGate, who are willing to deeply go into their reasons why, is very very tiny in my experience. Usually all you get is "gamergate is about harassing women", a link to an instance where trolls have done precisely that, and nothing further. Absolutely nothing to directly rebut the constant refrain that most people in the movement are there to crap on female developers. If you have some deeper insights, I'd love for you to share them here. I find GG to be unfairly maligned - and given the fact that they've picked a fight with primarily huge, monied interests with mass media connections, I can see why. It doesn't even need to rise to the level of massive conspiracy.
  - probably_wrong 12y ago
    Sure thing. I agree with the stated purposes of GG: games journalism needs some serious balancing. For instance, that mailing list in which both journalists and producers are members is an example of a line that should exist and yet doesn't. Hech, even "game developer literally in bed with producers" is something that, properly approached (not the case AT ALL, of course), could have been a valid point. And yet, what is GG known for? They are being openly misogynistic, attacking anyone who dares speaking against them in a pretty serious way. Anita Sarkeesian and Felicia Day, to name two famous women, were doxxed and harrassed just for speaking openly. And just like you cannot say "X and Y belong to Anonymous, but Z doesn't", you cannot say "The misogynists are using GG as an excuse, but they are not true GGers", because they are GG (the same way that you are not stuck in traffic, you are traffic). So my point would be: If a group is full of jerks that are flocking towards a group erroneously, are they really in the wrong group?
    - mafribe 12y ago
      Who were Anita Sarkeesian and Felicia Day doxxed by? Maybe they did it themselves, or their friends did it. Have you got any evidence at all that this is not what happened. After all damseling-in-distress is very lucrative these days. Edit: Downvoters, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence, where is your evidence?
      - Karunamon 12y ago
        This double standard absolutely boggles my mind, especially in the company of the people who usually inhabit this website. What evidence is there that prominent GG detractors are receiving harassment for their views? Exactly the same amount of evidence that prominent GG supporters are receiving harassment for their views, yet for some reason, this standard is only applied against some people and not others. I want to know what that reason is, I want someone reasonable to explain that to me, and I hope beyond all hope it doesn't boil down to "because some of those people have media connections and some don't".
        MrDom 12y ago
  - devindotcom 12y ago
    People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more.
    - brymaster 12y ago
      > People have elaborated on it for months. It's so thoroughly discredited in every way that if you don't see it now, you're not going to. Consider it "unfairly maligned" if you want - no one cares any more. Oh the corrupt journos showed up. I wonder why. https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/521737847758663680 https://twitter.com/totalbiscuit/status/521737847758663680
      - devindotcom 12y ago
        yes, and we would have gotten away with it, if it wasn't for you meddling kids!!
        brymaster 12y ago
        You're quick to dismiss but you games and tech "journalists" collude, push agendas and fail to recuse yourselves from conflicts of interest all the while seeing nothing wrong with that. https://twitter.com/leighalexander/status/556905004632920064 https://twitter.com/leighalexander/status/556905004632920064 Games "journalism" has always been a stones throw away from advertising and you all don't have an ethical bone in you. Basic journalistic values such as skeptical inquiry, critical thinking or independent judgment are foreign concepts.
        deleted 12y ago
        [deleted]
        MrDom 12y ago
        You're not as far off as you think. http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/17/exposed-the-secret-mailing-list-of-the-gaming-journalism-elite/ http://www.breitbart.com/london/2014/09/17/exposed-the-secre...
  - ijk 12y ago
    No, they're primarily picking fights with individuals and systematically distracting everyone from the actual corruption of monied interests. Every so-called ethics issue that GamerGate has highlighted has been a hugely overblown misinterpretation, while several major ethical issues, such as the attempt to tightly control what YouTubers could and could not say about Shadows of Mordor, were ignored by GamerGate. Major industry organizations have been forced to step up their efforts to protect innocent developers from GamerGate. I oppose GameGate because: * Every issue they've brought up has, without exception, been a minor quibble at best and an outright fabrication on the part of GamerGate at worst * GamerGate has, as a movement, systematically refused to decry the harassment or take any kind of practical steps to curb it * GamerGate uses charities as cover for their actions, and then DDOS the charities when the charities refuse to be used like that. * GamerGate is still, as a movement, entirely obsessed with three specific women * GamerGate uses anonymity for plausible deniability of its celebration of things like developer's dogs dying (multiple instances), SWATing (multiple instances), bomb threats (multiple instances).
    - mafribe 12y ago
      What concrete evidence have you for GG killing dogs, SWATing and bomb threats?
      - ijk 12y ago
        I specifically said celebrating those things; Brianna Wu's dog died of natural causes. It's immensely hard to tie the events to specific people, and by design GamerGate is too slippery to pin an individual's membership or non-membership. But there is undoubtedly involvement by people who solicit an association with the GamerGate movement. If your anonymous imageboard thread gets regularly co-opted by trolls, maybe they're the real movement and you're the outsider. Celebrating dogs dying: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/brianna-wu-dog_n_6251242.html http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/01/brianna-wu-dog_n_62... http://www.dogster.com/the-scoop/brianna-wu-dog-dies-gamergate-abuse-harassment http://www.dogster.com/the-scoop/brianna-wu-dog-dies-gamerga... SWATing: http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/13/gamergate-hits-new-low-with-attempts-to-send-swat-teams-to-critics http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/13/gamergate-... http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-attempt-to-attack-1677512916 http://gawker.com/8channers-sent-cops-to-wrong-house-in-atte... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/baphomet https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/baphomet Bomb and Shooting Threats: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women-video-game-threats-anita-sarkeesian.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/16/technology/gamergate-women... http://www.newsweek.com/feminist-video-game-critic-receives-bomb-threats-award-ceremony-271557 http://www.newsweek.com/feminist-video-game-critic-receives-... http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/anita-sarkeesian-forced-to-cancel-talk-over-shooti/1100-5045/ http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/anita-sarkeesian-forced-to... http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/15/gamergate-feminist-video-game-critic-anita-sarkeesian-cancels-utah-lecture-after-threat-citing-police-inability-to-prevent-concealed-weapons-at-event/ http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/15... http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/17/anita-sarkeesian-gdc14-bomb-threat/ http://www.engadget.com/2014/09/17/anita-sarkeesian-gdc14-bo... http://www.cnet.com/news/anita-sarkeesian-cancels-speech-in-wake-of-threats/ http://www.cnet.com/news/anita-sarkeesian-cancels-speech-in-... https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/521072241673379840 https://twitter.com/femfreq/status/521072241673379840 http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/15/7551417/nightline-gamergate http://www.polygon.com/2015/1/15/7551417/nightline-gamergate http://zennistrad.tumblr.com/post/100805680213/analyzing-the-8chan-thread-and-usu-threat-to-anita http://zennistrad.tumblr.com/post/100805680213/analyzing-the... Other GamerGate-related information: http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/107838639074/august-never-ends http://ohdeargodbees.tumblr.com/post/107838639074/august-nev... https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconceptions-thus-far/ https://pixietalksgamergate.wordpress.com/gamergates-misconc... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/there-s-no-money-in-it https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/there-s-no-money-in-it https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-condones-harassment https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/gamergate-condones-harass... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/how-gamergate-harasses-victims https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/how-gamergate-harasses-vi... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/why-i-still-oppose-gamergate https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/why-i-still-oppose-gamerg... https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/actually-gamergate-is-about-ethics-in-game-journal https://storify.com/a_man_in_black/actually-gamergate-is-abo... http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s4e7-gamergate-7071206 http://blip.tv/foldablehuman/s4e7-gamergate-7071206 http://www.zenofdesign.com/gamergate-hits-rock-bottom-keeps-digging/ http://www.zenofdesign.com/gamergate-hits-rock-bottom-keeps-...
  - lotsofmangos 12y ago
    I just assumed that the whole thing is just massive trolling, with the mark being anyone who takes any of it seriously.
  - _delirium 12y ago
    It's also the perception I have, mostly as a kind of observation of where the harassment seems to go (admittedly personal observation, not at all studying it systematically). I've spent a good amount of time mocking the gamergate set under my real name and nobody's done much to me. Trolling them is even a bit fun; it's sometimes a little unsporting, but sometimes it's amusing [1]. In related news, I'm a white male. Yet a number of my female colleagues have gotten torrents of abuse for much less criticism than I'm doing. That milieu seems to really smell red meat when someone who's a woman in tech says something they perceive as offending them. There is also a weird obsession with tracking down previous romantic/sexual partners of women who come across their radar, either for its own sake, or in hopes that the ex-boyfriend can be goaded into saying something negative. Whereas I can call them whatever I want with impunity. None of the gamergaters seem interested in tracking down a history of my sexual partners! Besides being gendered, the other bit I've noticed is that it seems very anglosphere. We had a brief discussion in class here (Denmark) about gamergate, which I was initially very cautious about because I didn't want to be leading, but it ended up mostly fizzling because afaict students just viewed it as foreign and not their problem. They didn't seem to view it as an active debate here that they should be for or against, but rather some weird debate in America that they could only shrug about (weird debates in America that you can only shrug about are a dime a dozen). Well, maybe America plus some tagging along from CA/UK/AU. That perception is probably strengthened by the fact that the high-profile "pro-gamergate" articles have come from right-wing Anglo-American media outlets like Breitbart Media, whose politics start from a position that's pretty weird/foreign by local standards. [1] There was a period when a bunch of people had a conspiracy theory about how DiGRA (http://www.digra.org/ http://www.digra.org/), a small and mostly ineffectual professional society for academics studying games, was taking over games. Being vaguely on the fringe of that organization provided good opportunities for trollish hashtagging (I attended a DiGRA conference once, which I believe made me a member for 1 year as a result of paying the conference registration fee). It was fun to imagine ourselves as all-powerful conspirators directing the future of games, when almost no game developers have even heard of the conference (much less read its papers), and the organization's powers are such that releasing a timely call for papers once a year remains an aspirational goal.
    - MrDom 12y ago
- dsuth 12y ago
  I think what yarrel meant, is that GamerGate was always about misogynistic views and attacks, as has been described in a number of articles about its origins.