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This post assumes that GoGo are doing a MITM simply to block YouTube in order to prevent their network from being congested. My assumptions would be that 1) Go

by barnaby 12y ago

This post assumes that GoGo are doing a MITM simply to block YouTube in order to prevent their network from being congested. My assumptions would be that 1) GoGo are blocking youtube in favor of their in-flight paid media services not just for badwidth 2) GoGo's MITM attack has little to do with media content but rather more about being able to read all the communications of passengers for "national security" purposes. If they are decrypting and logging your traffic (including passwords) and communications, then I assume their scheme can be defeated by a VPN. If you want to send intimate messages to your lover, or discuss a political protest while in flight, without some nosy GoGo employee reading it, then probably using OTR (like Cryptocat or pidgin/adium), PGP (like mailvelope, enigmail), and ZRTP (Redphone/Signal) are a pretty good idea.

declan 12y ago
But there's no evidence that either of your assumptions is true. Gogo has said publicly[1] that they're trying to "shape bandwidth" to YouTube and other streaming sites. Let's not spread conspiracy theories about "national security" on HN when the truth about the NSA's domestic surveillance hijinks is disturbing enough. I say this even though I've criticized Gogo[2] and suggested ways in which they may be legally liable as a result of their fake *.google.com cert. For those who may not be familiar with his work, David Reed, the author of the linked post, helped with the early development of what would become the modern Internet. That includes UDP and IP signaling, which is one reason (I believe) he won an ACM hall of fame award. [1] http://concourse.gogoair.com/technology/statement-gogo-regarding-streaming-video-policy http://concourse.gogoair.com/technology/statement-gogo-regar... [2] https://twitter.com/declanm/status/552365531798716417 https://twitter.com/declanm/status/552365531798716417
- barnaby 12y ago
  Fair point. It's most likely nothing nefarious, but who knows, maybe they log everything and will one day face a data breach like Sony? Maybe they data mine it? IRL if somebody intercepted all of your mail, opened the envelope and then put your private letters and bank statements in their own envelope to re-send it, then told you they were doing this to shape postage traffic because they physically cannot handle certain kinds of packages to your location, then you can both A) Believe them that they cannot handle such packages and B) worry about what goes on during the process of opening and repackaging your mail. You don't know the employees doing the repackaging and what if one of them moonlights as a thief. The post was about A, my response was about B. Sorry if it's off topic but you can and should take steps to protect yourself without interfering with their bandwidth shaping.
- sdenton4 12y ago
  The Snowden documents explicitly point to heavy effort going into monitoring internet use by passengers on airplanes, including using information about connecting flights to connect passengers to MAC addresses. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were doing a bit of work to make sure that the actual content is readable. It's barely a conspiracy theory.
- xnull1guest 12y ago
  "In designing its existing network, Gogo worked closely with law enforcement to incorporate functionalities and protections that would serve public safety and national security interests" "Although FCC rules “do not require licensees to implement capabilities to support law enforcement beyond those outlined in CALEA…,” Hastings noted, “[n]evertheless, Gogo worked with federal agencies to reach agreement regarding a set of additional capabilities to accommodate law enforcement interests. Gogo then implemented those functionalities into its system design.”" http://www.wired.com/2014/04/gogo-collaboration-feds/ http://www.wired.com/2014/04/gogo-collaboration-feds/ http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gogo-Letter-to-FCC.pdf http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gogo-Letter-...
- cpeterso 12y ago
  Why would Gogo need to MITM YouTube to shape traffic? Can't they just cap each passenger's traffic, regardless of the website or whether it is encrypted?
HackinOut 12y ago
1) They are not blocking (completely) Youtube. But still plausible. 2) Then why would they be doing it only on video streaming websites? [1] Also, if they are so obvious about their methods from now on, one nice thing is that we won't need whistleblowers anymore. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839733
- ubernostrum 12y ago
  As a frequent user of in-flight internet, I can tell you their login page has a big reminder saying that streaming video is not supported and giving examples like Netflix and HBO Go. The technical reason -- which is sound -- is that there's not enough bandwidth between plane/ground.
  - HackinOut 12y ago
    I would expect that even if it wasn't mentioned, I mean it's a freaking internet access in a fast moving object 30,000 feet above ground! I don't like what Gogo just did, but kudos for undertaking this challenge. barnaby mentioned they have in-flight paid media services, of what sort/diversity/quality? I suppose it's a selection of movies stored on a server in the plane.
    - ubernostrum 12y ago
      Yes, in-flight streaming services tend to have a bunch of stuff on a little server on-board, and the in-cabin routers can more than handle that. It's the plane<->ground link that's the chokepoint; on a lot of planes that bandwidth isn't much better (and sometimes worse) than a 4G cellular link, but shared among everyone on board.
    - barnaby 12y ago
      Exactly, those media servers are in the plane.
  - wtallis 12y ago
    Strictly speaking, GoGo's service isn't capable of handling streaming, but it's not clear to what extent bandwidth is the limiting factor. Really bad bufferbloat does horrible things to goodput. With proper QoS, it's likely that they could sustain at least one or two low-resolution YouTube streams, just not a whole plane full. Terrestrial ISP's can't handle everyone watching video at the same time, either. Jim Gettys reported on the CeroWrt-devel list that he tried to benchmark the in-flight Internet connection on a United flight to Hawaii last November, and it apparently crashed the connection. The routers and accompanying software being used for these systems are probably of exceedingly low quality.

by barnaby 12y ago

declan 12y ago

But there's no evidence that either of your assumptions is true. Gogo has said publicly[1] that they're trying to "shape bandwidth" to YouTube and other streaming sites. Let's not spread conspiracy theories about "national security" on HN when the truth about the NSA's domestic surveillance hijinks is disturbing enough. I say this even though I've criticized Gogo[2] and suggested ways in which they may be legally liable as a result of their fake *.google.com cert. For those who may not be familiar with his work, David Reed, the author of the linked post, helped with the early development of what would become the modern Internet. That includes UDP and IP signaling, which is one reason (I believe) he won an ACM hall of fame award. [1] http://concourse.gogoair.com/technology/statement-gogo-regarding-streaming-video-policy http://concourse.gogoair.com/technology/statement-gogo-regar... [2] https://twitter.com/declanm/status/552365531798716417 https://twitter.com/declanm/status/552365531798716417

barnaby 12y ago
Fair point. It's most likely nothing nefarious, but who knows, maybe they log everything and will one day face a data breach like Sony? Maybe they data mine it? IRL if somebody intercepted all of your mail, opened the envelope and then put your private letters and bank statements in their own envelope to re-send it, then told you they were doing this to shape postage traffic because they physically cannot handle certain kinds of packages to your location, then you can both A) Believe them that they cannot handle such packages and B) worry about what goes on during the process of opening and repackaging your mail. You don't know the employees doing the repackaging and what if one of them moonlights as a thief. The post was about A, my response was about B. Sorry if it's off topic but you can and should take steps to protect yourself without interfering with their bandwidth shaping.
sdenton4 12y ago
The Snowden documents explicitly point to heavy effort going into monitoring internet use by passengers on airplanes, including using information about connecting flights to connect passengers to MAC addresses. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were doing a bit of work to make sure that the actual content is readable. It's barely a conspiracy theory.
xnull1guest 12y ago
"In designing its existing network, Gogo worked closely with law enforcement to incorporate functionalities and protections that would serve public safety and national security interests" "Although FCC rules “do not require licensees to implement capabilities to support law enforcement beyond those outlined in CALEA…,” Hastings noted, “[n]evertheless, Gogo worked with federal agencies to reach agreement regarding a set of additional capabilities to accommodate law enforcement interests. Gogo then implemented those functionalities into its system design.”" http://www.wired.com/2014/04/gogo-collaboration-feds/ http://www.wired.com/2014/04/gogo-collaboration-feds/ http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gogo-Letter-to-FCC.pdf http://www.wired.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Gogo-Letter-...
cpeterso 12y ago
Why would Gogo need to MITM YouTube to shape traffic? Can't they just cap each passenger's traffic, regardless of the website or whether it is encrypted?

HackinOut 12y ago

1) They are not blocking (completely) Youtube. But still plausible. 2) Then why would they be doing it only on video streaming websites? [1] Also, if they are so obvious about their methods from now on, one nice thing is that we won't need whistleblowers anymore. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839733 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8839733

ubernostrum 12y ago
As a frequent user of in-flight internet, I can tell you their login page has a big reminder saying that streaming video is not supported and giving examples like Netflix and HBO Go. The technical reason -- which is sound -- is that there's not enough bandwidth between plane/ground.
- HackinOut 12y ago
  I would expect that even if it wasn't mentioned, I mean it's a freaking internet access in a fast moving object 30,000 feet above ground! I don't like what Gogo just did, but kudos for undertaking this challenge. barnaby mentioned they have in-flight paid media services, of what sort/diversity/quality? I suppose it's a selection of movies stored on a server in the plane.
  - ubernostrum 12y ago
    Yes, in-flight streaming services tend to have a bunch of stuff on a little server on-board, and the in-cabin routers can more than handle that. It's the plane<->ground link that's the chokepoint; on a lot of planes that bandwidth isn't much better (and sometimes worse) than a 4G cellular link, but shared among everyone on board.
  - barnaby 12y ago
    Exactly, those media servers are in the plane.
- wtallis 12y ago
  Strictly speaking, GoGo's service isn't capable of handling streaming, but it's not clear to what extent bandwidth is the limiting factor. Really bad bufferbloat does horrible things to goodput. With proper QoS, it's likely that they could sustain at least one or two low-resolution YouTube streams, just not a whole plane full. Terrestrial ISP's can't handle everyone watching video at the same time, either. Jim Gettys reported on the CeroWrt-devel list that he tried to benchmark the in-flight Internet connection on a United flight to Hawaii last November, and it apparently crashed the connection. The routers and accompanying software being used for these systems are probably of exceedingly low quality.