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> but do people really not believe that if starting salary for an A+ developer was $150k, or whatever, that we might get more high-achievers First, US is alrea

by kar2014 12y ago

> but do people really not believe that if starting salary for an A+ developer was $150k, or whatever, that we might get more high-achievers First, US is already the third country in list for highest paid programmers, there is not much room to grow. Second, Companies are in business, not for charity. Companies are there for profit so if they could hire a beginner programmer for 50k, they should, otherwise they would be out of business and you would be buying everything made in China.

Amezarak 12y ago
Well then, that means one of two things: 1. There is, as dictated by the law of supply-and-demand, not an undersupply of good programmers, otherwise good programmers would be in a negotiating position such that they would reject your 50k offer for a 150k offer elsewhere; or 2. The market cannot support this hypothetical company's business model. If my restaurant fails because labor costs leave me overrunning my revenue, few people would argue that is evidence we need immigration reform so I can find cheaper labor.
- seanmcdirmid 12y ago
  But unlike a resteraunt, you can open abroad and capture labor resources in other countries. So if programmers get too expensive in the states, or Silicon Valley, relative to the world market, there is a point where you are forced to open an office elsewhere (if not your competition does and eats your lunch). Without immigration, that would happen sooner (rather than the mythical doubling of American programming salaries).
  - Amezarak 12y ago
    Programmers in the US are already wildly, wildly expensive in the USA relative to the world market, often by an order of magnitude. So, if that's the case, we're already screwed and we're only being saved by some market inefficiency. We should all prepare for the inevitable future where we are doing very well to make 15-20k. EDIT: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary The maximum on that scale is 530,000 Rs, which is 8000 USD for a web developer. No doubt other countries have even lower salaries.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      You cannot hire a good Chinese programmer for 15-20k, so no worries.
      - Amezarak 12y ago
        Perhaps not, I did not check Chinese salaries, but you can hire good programmers from other countries for less than that.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        Ultimately it's a world market for labor at the top end. Barring artificial distortions (immigration/emigration restrictions), people will move to where they can get the best deal; since good Chinese programmers can immigrate to the states, it puts a floor on Chinese salaries, the same is true in India actually. It is a whole different game for soso programmers. If you want a soso programmer in China, they will be much cheaper in the states, but the bottom is also much lower than one from the states could imagine, and often you just get what you pay for (or worse).
        Amezarak 12y ago
        > Barring artificial distortions (immigration/emigration restrictions), people will move to where they can get the best deal; No, they won't. Many people value staying near home more than they value additional salary. That's especially true for people who'd have to move house thousands of miles into a new culture, but it's true even of people within the US.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        There is some of that, but not when wages are a magnitude off. If I can only make $50k in saint Louis and $150k in SF, there is huge pressure to move and start climbing the ladder. The programmer making $20k in Bangalore will move to the Bay area to add an extra zero to the end of their salary if they have the ability. This mobility checks salary bottoms for those who do want to stay (e.g. for the market I'm in over in China).
shanusmagnus 12y ago
Not much room to grow? Says who? Did I miss the referendum in which the computer science salary cap was enacted into law? The fact that companies are not charitable institutions is exactly the point. If they want more or better engineers they are welcome to pay salaries that will motivate such people to work for them, much as the petroleum industry is currently doing.
- kar2014 12y ago
  Or they could offshore and you could day dream about your double salary all you want. That is a possibility, wait, it is a reality, already happening.
  - mgkimsal 12y ago
    Then let them carry on. Most of these companies are global in nature already. My naive view of the plea for more foreign tech workers to enter the US is that the majority of those controlling the money just really really really like like in SF and don't want to leave. When there's talk of tech worker shortage, there's not even any really serious effort to look around the US. Nope, the hive mind is in SF, and they'll move heaven and earth before they have to move someplace else.
    - kar2014 12y ago
      I'm sure, you understand that equates directly to jobs moving to other countries. Do you prefer to keep jobs in the country or kick them elsewhere?
jacalata 12y ago
The US is third? Well jeez, you'd think that a country arguing that they need to attract all the top programmers in the world would at least try and pay the highest in the world to start with.

by kar2014 12y ago

Amezarak 12y ago

Well then, that means one of two things: 1. There is, as dictated by the law of supply-and-demand, not an undersupply of good programmers, otherwise good programmers would be in a negotiating position such that they would reject your 50k offer for a 150k offer elsewhere; or 2. The market cannot support this hypothetical company's business model. If my restaurant fails because labor costs leave me overrunning my revenue, few people would argue that is evidence we need immigration reform so I can find cheaper labor.

seanmcdirmid 12y ago
But unlike a resteraunt, you can open abroad and capture labor resources in other countries. So if programmers get too expensive in the states, or Silicon Valley, relative to the world market, there is a point where you are forced to open an office elsewhere (if not your competition does and eats your lunch). Without immigration, that would happen sooner (rather than the mythical doubling of American programming salaries).
- Amezarak 12y ago
  Programmers in the US are already wildly, wildly expensive in the USA relative to the world market, often by an order of magnitude. So, if that's the case, we're already screwed and we're only being saved by some market inefficiency. We should all prepare for the inevitable future where we are doing very well to make 15-20k. EDIT: http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary http://www.payscale.com/research/IN/Job=Web_Developer/Salary The maximum on that scale is 530,000 Rs, which is 8000 USD for a web developer. No doubt other countries have even lower salaries.
  - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
    You cannot hire a good Chinese programmer for 15-20k, so no worries.
    - Amezarak 12y ago
      Perhaps not, I did not check Chinese salaries, but you can hire good programmers from other countries for less than that.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        Ultimately it's a world market for labor at the top end. Barring artificial distortions (immigration/emigration restrictions), people will move to where they can get the best deal; since good Chinese programmers can immigrate to the states, it puts a floor on Chinese salaries, the same is true in India actually. It is a whole different game for soso programmers. If you want a soso programmer in China, they will be much cheaper in the states, but the bottom is also much lower than one from the states could imagine, and often you just get what you pay for (or worse).
        Amezarak 12y ago
        > Barring artificial distortions (immigration/emigration restrictions), people will move to where they can get the best deal; No, they won't. Many people value staying near home more than they value additional salary. That's especially true for people who'd have to move house thousands of miles into a new culture, but it's true even of people within the US.
        seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        There is some of that, but not when wages are a magnitude off. If I can only make $50k in saint Louis and $150k in SF, there is huge pressure to move and start climbing the ladder. The programmer making $20k in Bangalore will move to the Bay area to add an extra zero to the end of their salary if they have the ability. This mobility checks salary bottoms for those who do want to stay (e.g. for the market I'm in over in China).

shanusmagnus 12y ago

Not much room to grow? Says who? Did I miss the referendum in which the computer science salary cap was enacted into law? The fact that companies are not charitable institutions is exactly the point. If they want more or better engineers they are welcome to pay salaries that will motivate such people to work for them, much as the petroleum industry is currently doing.

kar2014 12y ago
Or they could offshore and you could day dream about your double salary all you want. That is a possibility, wait, it is a reality, already happening.
- mgkimsal 12y ago
  Then let them carry on. Most of these companies are global in nature already. My naive view of the plea for more foreign tech workers to enter the US is that the majority of those controlling the money just really really really like like in SF and don't want to leave. When there's talk of tech worker shortage, there's not even any really serious effort to look around the US. Nope, the hive mind is in SF, and they'll move heaven and earth before they have to move someplace else.
  - kar2014 12y ago
    I'm sure, you understand that equates directly to jobs moving to other countries. Do you prefer to keep jobs in the country or kick them elsewhere?

jacalata 12y ago

The US is third? Well jeez, you'd think that a country arguing that they need to attract all the top programmers in the world would at least try and pay the highest in the world to start with.