7 ms·

It may seem a bit silly to add this, but I think it is good to link the reference for those who may not have seen it before: Even compiling from source, one al

by foo2312 12y ago

It may seem a bit silly to add this, but I think it is good to link the reference for those who may not have seen it before: Even compiling from source, one also has to trust the compiler... (see, e.g. the classic http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/ken/trust.html, pdf version at https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thompson.pdf https://www.ece.cmu.edu/~ganger/712.fall02/papers/p761-thomp...)

tormeh 12y ago
And then you have to trust the OS. And the machine... Unless you build you computer yourself from silicon, you're not going to get rid of trust.
- GauntletWizard 12y ago
  Then you would also have to trust that your knowledge of how silicon processing and manufacture is correct, and that whomever taught you how to do so was not malicious. At some point, it all becomes a circlejerk of Cartesian doubt.
- senko 12y ago
  Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base
- a1369209993 12y ago
  > Unless you build you computer yourself from silicon And the chip design, and the fab control software, and the tools that make the tools that make the tools. And descrete components won't help you because transistors are large enough to conceal a mircocontroler emulating a transistor and listening for high-frequency handshake signals. Relays are probably safe since you can make those yourself out of iron and copper (rods, springs and wire), and conveniently those are the same things you need to build motors! You're still probably screwed though.
  - Fando 12y ago
    To make an omelette, first you have to create the universe!
    - bch 12y ago
      Carl Sagans Cookbook series: How to bake an apple pie from scratch -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s664NsLeFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s664NsLeFM
marvy 12y ago
There is a simple antidote to this problem, as long as you have 1) the source code to the compiler you suspect of being bad, and 2) a second compiler (binary only), written by someone who is not friends with the first one. For instance, if you want to verify that gcc is not evil, you need the gcc source, and MS Visual C++. The basic idea is summarized by Bruce Schnier here: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_tr...

by foo2312 12y ago

tormeh 12y ago

And then you have to trust the OS. And the machine... Unless you build you computer yourself from silicon, you're not going to get rid of trust.

GauntletWizard 12y ago
Then you would also have to trust that your knowledge of how silicon processing and manufacture is correct, and that whomever taught you how to do so was not malicious. At some point, it all becomes a circlejerk of Cartesian doubt.
senko 12y ago
Further reading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trusted_computing_base
a1369209993 12y ago
> Unless you build you computer yourself from silicon And the chip design, and the fab control software, and the tools that make the tools that make the tools. And descrete components won't help you because transistors are large enough to conceal a mircocontroler emulating a transistor and listening for high-frequency handshake signals. Relays are probably safe since you can make those yourself out of iron and copper (rods, springs and wire), and conveniently those are the same things you need to build motors! You're still probably screwed though.
- Fando 12y ago
  To make an omelette, first you have to create the universe!
  - bch 12y ago
    Carl Sagans Cookbook series: How to bake an apple pie from scratch -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s664NsLeFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7s664NsLeFM

marvy 12y ago

There is a simple antidote to this problem, as long as you have 1) the source code to the compiler you suspect of being bad, and 2) a second compiler (binary only), written by someone who is not friends with the first one. For instance, if you want to verify that gcc is not evil, you need the gcc source, and MS Visual C++. The basic idea is summarized by Bruce Schnier here: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_trus.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2006/01/countering_tr...