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The comparison with systemd is unfair. Docker wants to be "batteries included, but swappable/removable". If you don't like host management, orchestration, build

The comparison with systemd is unfair. Docker wants to be "batteries included, but swappable/removable". If you don't like host management, orchestration, build, etc., you can disable that specific component and put another one; and none of those components are strictly necessary. Contrast with systemd, where it's impossible to use anything else, and the attitude of the maintainers is "our way or the highway" when people beg them to continue to support alternatives. Compare Docker to frameworks like Django or Rails, which come with everything you need (templating, ORM, url mapping, etc.) but where each thing is replaceable if you don't like it; versus Rocket which would be like Flask or Sinatra, which are smaller and require to be combined with other things to be useful. Nothing wrong with either approach; but if the comparison is right, we can expect Docker to provide "reasonable defaults", and some people building some specific apps to use Rocket because they just want to run things and they don't need build/orchestration/API/etc (or they need special versions of those components).

shykes 12y ago
Jerome don't forget that Django is monolithic. Docker is modular (ie swarm and machine are entirely separate binaries).
- nostrademons 12y ago
  You can use Django as swappable libraries. I worked on some projects at Google that used Django for the request routing, templates, and helpers, but completely swapped out the ORM for Google's own RPC system. Jinja2 is basically the Django templating language pulled out into its own library; before it existed, people would just use django.template. Some folks just use the ORM and request routing and then stick a JSON serializer on top to send data to an Angular SPA.
23david 12y ago
Systemd is a fair comparison. Systemd is a modular system, and it's also possible to not install different components if you want. Most of the components aren't strictly necessary. I think your community is begging you to continue to support alternatives. You just aren't listening.
- shykes 12y ago
  I am listening. Walk me exactly through how you think we should support alternatives, and why you think we're not. I will work it out right here with you.
  - shykes 12y ago
    Well, I think that was my limit right there. If the above message got downvoted, I really don't see any constructive way to have a conversation here. I think I tried. Come say hi on irc if you want to talk some more. We (the 200-ish people from all horizons on #docker-dev) don't bite. Happy hacking everyone.
    - teraflop 12y ago
      Speaking only for myself, while I have no significant beef with Docker, I've found the general tone of your comments to be slightly off-putting. If others feel the same way, that might explain the downvotes. I think it boils down to the tension between HN as a place for uninvolved commenters to discuss articles, and as a place for the subjects of those articles to engage in that discussion. Not to slight your intentions, but a comment like "I will work it out right here with you." comes across as an attempt to wrest control of the conversational dynamic, not to mention a little confrontational. For better or for worse, that's something that doesn't really fly when you have an obvious vested interest. This is not meant as criticism, just food for thought that might help explain the frosty reception you've been getting around here.
      - hyperliner 12y ago
        I read it differently. I read it as: "it seems you have a key issue but I disagree with you. However, if you clarify your issue I will stay here and discuss it in the open right now."
        smt88 12y ago
        Same here. I perceived it as very friendly and helpful.

shykes 12y ago

Jerome don't forget that Django is monolithic. Docker is modular (ie swarm and machine are entirely separate binaries).

nostrademons 12y ago
You can use Django as swappable libraries. I worked on some projects at Google that used Django for the request routing, templates, and helpers, but completely swapped out the ORM for Google's own RPC system. Jinja2 is basically the Django templating language pulled out into its own library; before it existed, people would just use django.template. Some folks just use the ORM and request routing and then stick a JSON serializer on top to send data to an Angular SPA.

23david 12y ago

Systemd is a fair comparison. Systemd is a modular system, and it's also possible to not install different components if you want. Most of the components aren't strictly necessary. I think your community is begging you to continue to support alternatives. You just aren't listening.

shykes 12y ago
I am listening. Walk me exactly through how you think we should support alternatives, and why you think we're not. I will work it out right here with you.
- shykes 12y ago
  Well, I think that was my limit right there. If the above message got downvoted, I really don't see any constructive way to have a conversation here. I think I tried. Come say hi on irc if you want to talk some more. We (the 200-ish people from all horizons on #docker-dev) don't bite. Happy hacking everyone.
  - teraflop 12y ago
    Speaking only for myself, while I have no significant beef with Docker, I've found the general tone of your comments to be slightly off-putting. If others feel the same way, that might explain the downvotes. I think it boils down to the tension between HN as a place for uninvolved commenters to discuss articles, and as a place for the subjects of those articles to engage in that discussion. Not to slight your intentions, but a comment like "I will work it out right here with you." comes across as an attempt to wrest control of the conversational dynamic, not to mention a little confrontational. For better or for worse, that's something that doesn't really fly when you have an obvious vested interest. This is not meant as criticism, just food for thought that might help explain the frosty reception you've been getting around here.
    - hyperliner 12y ago
      I read it differently. I read it as: "it seems you have a key issue but I disagree with you. However, if you clarify your issue I will stay here and discuss it in the open right now."
      - smt88 12y ago
        Same here. I perceived it as very friendly and helpful.