6 ms·

Feedback from peers within your (current or desired) field is not the only feedback of importance in most people's lives. Disbelief and discouragement are at le

by boken 12y ago

Feedback from peers within your (current or desired) field is not the only feedback of importance in most people's lives. Disbelief and discouragement are at least as likely to come from social acquaintances, friends, neighbors, and family, whose actions are typically more impactful on the young (not to say many of the old). In any case, feedback is not the only deterrent, nor is it the most powerful. A lifetime of insinuations and flat-out statements from the vocal majority of your peers and teachers that x is not your domain--before you've even had a chance to think that it might be--does much to shape a person. But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office.

yummyfajitas 12y ago
If you have a fixed amount of negative feedback from friends and family and a lower level of negative feedback from codeacademy than from a teacher, negative feedback is lower for autodidacts. If negative feedback reduces involvement, then (male autodidacts)/(male programmers) should be lower than (female autodidacts)/(female programmers). Does this theory need the additional hypothesis that real life negative feedback is higher for women privately doing things with their computers? What experiment/measurement (if any) could invalidate this theory? But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office. This seems implausible. In most technical circles (see, e.g., HN) there is reflexive political correctness and mobbing against anyone who dares question the party line. Witness the comments on this article as a perfect example. We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?")
- philh 12y ago
  > We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. Describing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 as a personal attack seems... excessive. (Looks like he edited it though, were you talking about the original version?)
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    The original version said "you are the problem". It's hardly cursing someone out, but it is certainly more hostility than is normally desired here.
    - philh 12y ago
      I agree, that version is absolutely a personal attack.
      - tptacek 12y ago
        Like I said upthread: there is a difference between saying that someone with a particular misconception is a reason to build a website, and literally attacking them for holding that misconception. Altman's comment was a little personalized, but in context only a little bit: the only thing Altman could have known about the commenter was that they held the misconception. To push it over the line into "personal attack", maybe it would need to read something more like: "You're the reason we had to waste time building this site."
- boken 12y ago
  There isn't a "fixed amount of negative feedback"; most people, men and women, will do their utmost to minimize that feedback, particularly when it comes from people who are otherwise decent to us or play a large part in determining the smoothness or roughness of our lives. And particularly when that feedback comes preemptively from an early age. Reflexive political correctness on HN and other forums, meanwhile, is not preemptive. It is in response to the overwhelming amount of belligerence, innuendo, and offhand sexism that runs rampant when there is no such moderation. If you think it implausible that sexism is more noticeable and notable online than in schools or workplaces, I have to wonder how much time you've spent on BBS, IRC, etc., over the years. Or else whether you just don't notice it. This wouldn't be unusual; sexism is so embedded in most parts of the world that it takes either a great amount of reflection or a small amount of finding yourself on the wrong end of it to notice. (We are, after all, communicating in a language in which "gratify me, a man, sexually" is among the stronger insults.) (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?") I would not expect anyone to feel as strongly about libraries as they do about how other people are treated; in fact, I'd be glad not to know them if they did.
  - yummyfajitas 12y ago
    ...most people, men and women, will do their utmost to minimize that feedback... You clearly didn't even read what I said (hint: what I said was entirely based on this phenomenon). It also seems likely that you can't think of a measurement that would refute your theory. If that's the case, then it's not even wrong. Reflexive political correctness on HN and other forums, meanwhile, is not preemptive. It is in response to the overwhelming amount of belligerence, innuendo, and offhand sexism that runs rampant...I would not expect anyone to feel as strongly about libraries as they do about how other people are treated;... The only person on this thread who treated anyone badly was Sam Altman. The belligerence is almost entirely on the part of the PC crowd. If you want to see more examples, browse my history. See, e.g. DanBC's comment from last week calling me a misogynist for asking a simple philosophical question (admittedly, a question that confounded the PC crowd).
    - tptacek 12y ago

by boken 12y ago

yummyfajitas 12y ago

If you have a fixed amount of negative feedback from friends and family and a lower level of negative feedback from codeacademy than from a teacher, negative feedback is lower for autodidacts. If negative feedback reduces involvement, then (male autodidacts)/(male programmers) should be lower than (female autodidacts)/(female programmers). Does this theory need the additional hypothesis that real life negative feedback is higher for women privately doing things with their computers? What experiment/measurement (if any) could invalidate this theory? But probably some of your downvotes are coming because you're discounting how much louder and more open sexism tends to be online than in the office. This seems implausible. In most technical circles (see, e.g., HN) there is reflexive political correctness and mobbing against anyone who dares question the party line. Witness the comments on this article as a perfect example. We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?")

philh 12y ago
> We literally have the president of ycombinator making a personal attack against someone who dares to ask why a set of anecdotes is interesting. Describing https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8653669 as a personal attack seems... excessive. (Looks like he edited it though, were you talking about the original version?)
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  The original version said "you are the problem". It's hardly cursing someone out, but it is certainly more hostility than is normally desired here.
  - philh 12y ago
    I agree, that version is absolutely a personal attack.
    - tptacek 12y ago
      Like I said upthread: there is a difference between saying that someone with a particular misconception is a reason to build a website, and literally attacking them for holding that misconception. Altman's comment was a little personalized, but in context only a little bit: the only thing Altman could have known about the commenter was that they held the misconception. To push it over the line into "personal attack", maybe it would need to read something more like: "You're the reason we had to waste time building this site."
boken 12y ago
There isn't a "fixed amount of negative feedback"; most people, men and women, will do their utmost to minimize that feedback, particularly when it comes from people who are otherwise decent to us or play a large part in determining the smoothness or roughness of our lives. And particularly when that feedback comes preemptively from an early age. Reflexive political correctness on HN and other forums, meanwhile, is not preemptive. It is in response to the overwhelming amount of belligerence, innuendo, and offhand sexism that runs rampant when there is no such moderation. If you think it implausible that sexism is more noticeable and notable online than in schools or workplaces, I have to wonder how much time you've spent on BBS, IRC, etc., over the years. Or else whether you just don't notice it. This wouldn't be unusual; sexism is so embedded in most parts of the world that it takes either a great amount of reflection or a small amount of finding yourself on the wrong end of it to notice. (We are, after all, communicating in a language in which "gratify me, a man, sexually" is among the stronger insults.) (Note that I've never seen sama or anyone else attack someone for "why would I use your lib over sqlite?") I would not expect anyone to feel as strongly about libraries as they do about how other people are treated; in fact, I'd be glad not to know them if they did.
- yummyfajitas 12y ago
  ...most people, men and women, will do their utmost to minimize that feedback... You clearly didn't even read what I said (hint: what I said was entirely based on this phenomenon). It also seems likely that you can't think of a measurement that would refute your theory. If that's the case, then it's not even wrong. Reflexive political correctness on HN and other forums, meanwhile, is not preemptive. It is in response to the overwhelming amount of belligerence, innuendo, and offhand sexism that runs rampant...I would not expect anyone to feel as strongly about libraries as they do about how other people are treated;... The only person on this thread who treated anyone badly was Sam Altman. The belligerence is almost entirely on the part of the PC crowd. If you want to see more examples, browse my history. See, e.g. DanBC's comment from last week calling me a misogynist for asking a simple philosophical question (admittedly, a question that confounded the PC crowd).
  - tptacek 12y ago