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Those sorts of questions always bothered me in IQ tests too. I was also always bothered by questions like: "What comes next in this sequence? 1,4,9,16,25," Su

Those sorts of questions always bothered me in IQ tests too. I was also always bothered by questions like: "What comes next in this sequence? 1,4,9,16,25," Sure, the answer might be 36, but then again maybe we're looking at some subtler sequence of numbers than that. Maybe it's "the number of bald men who walked past my house every hour since 5am". Maybe the next number is 345 due to the annual Patrick Stewart Lookalike Parade. Who knows?

mattmaroon 17y ago
You're probably taking it too seriously then. There's a certain subtext, the catching on to of which might be part of the test, that it's a rational and discernible pattern, and that if the answer is not 36 then the question is broken.
- hughprime 17y ago
  You're probably taking it too seriously then. Oh, certainly. I've never found a case where there's genuine ambiguity, it's just that there's a certain part of my brain which takes delight in pointing out all the potential flaws in everything I read. It's much harder to concentrate on the test when half my brain is busy visualizing what four hundred Captain Picards would look like marching down my street.
  - chrischen 17y ago
    You probably have ADHD, try untimed tests like the Mega or Titan test.
  - jamesbritt 17y ago
    "Oh, certainly. I've never found a case where there's genuine ambiguity ..." I recall a test that asked to pick the one word out of four that was different or didn't fit or something. The thing was, three out of four words described red objects. But a different three out of four words had one syllable; the other had two. So it them became a game of, What was the test creator likely thinking?
    - blinks 17y ago
      This is why a proper test needs to be administered by a professional, I would expect.
amix 17y ago
I am no fan of IQ tests myself, but I think in most tests they are looking for the most simple and logical answers - and they are trying to create tests that have very little ambiguity. In your sequence it's more logical and simple that the answer is 36, than it is how many bald men walked by your house today. I don't know if IQ tests tell anything about a person's real intelligence, but I think that most intelligent people can become very good at solving these tests.
hc 17y ago
the answer is the simplest possible answer. this isn't obviously well defined, but it can be made so in at least one way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity
- jerf 17y ago
  No dice. Kolmogorov complexity is critically dependent on the encoding scheme you use for the complexity measure, and given the nature of the problems in question that's going to really not work. If your encoding scheme favors polynomials but makes expression squares a royal pain, you're going to get a radically different K-complexity number than you will if your encoding goes the other way around. And coming up with both such encodings is trivial. This is why proofs using K-complexity (forgive me, I often misspell it) always use it in a way that doesn't involve actually assigning numbers to the K-complexity; while it has certain desirable properties, there is no unique K-complexity value for a given language. Aaaaand it's exactly this reason I also loathe those questions. It is much less "do this mathematical thing" than "read the puzzle-maker's mind", and quite frequently there is simply literally not enough information in the sequence to read the puzzle-makers mind. With an uncountably infinite number of functions to choose from and a finite set of inputs to choose among them, it's a complete joke of a test. On the other hand, with suitable constraints given in advance it could prove quite useful. (... but that would remove the thrill of lording the answer over people, methinks, which I think is a distressingly large part of such problem's appeal....)
  - hc 17y ago
    > you're going to get a radically different K-complexity number than you will if your encoding goes the other way around. in the limit, all schemes are roughly equivalent. (they are equivalent up to constants.) > given the nature of the problems in question that's going to really not work ok. so attempting to compute the kolmogorov complexity for iq test problems is a bad idea. it isnt actually a computable function. its existence shows there is a mathematically rigorous way to talk about the most plausible way to extend an integer sequence. more than anything, this is a counter to the argument that "an uncountably infinite number of functions to choose from and a finite set of inputs to choose among them" makes the test entirely subjective. > there is no unique K-complexity value for a given language. for any given language, there is, unless i dont understand what youre saying. > your encoding scheme favors polynomials but makes expression squares a royal pain i know its wrong, but i cant help pointing out that that doesnt actually make any sense at all
der_ketzer 17y ago
There's a very good movie "The Oxford Murders", where the math professor talks about that. Every sequence has many answers, the trick is to find how to build the sequence you want and when you achieve thar, your answer is as correct as the "right answer".

mattmaroon 17y ago

You're probably taking it too seriously then. There's a certain subtext, the catching on to of which might be part of the test, that it's a rational and discernible pattern, and that if the answer is not 36 then the question is broken.

hughprime 17y ago
You're probably taking it too seriously then. Oh, certainly. I've never found a case where there's genuine ambiguity, it's just that there's a certain part of my brain which takes delight in pointing out all the potential flaws in everything I read. It's much harder to concentrate on the test when half my brain is busy visualizing what four hundred Captain Picards would look like marching down my street.
- chrischen 17y ago
  You probably have ADHD, try untimed tests like the Mega or Titan test.
- jamesbritt 17y ago
  "Oh, certainly. I've never found a case where there's genuine ambiguity ..." I recall a test that asked to pick the one word out of four that was different or didn't fit or something. The thing was, three out of four words described red objects. But a different three out of four words had one syllable; the other had two. So it them became a game of, What was the test creator likely thinking?
  - blinks 17y ago
    This is why a proper test needs to be administered by a professional, I would expect.

amix 17y ago

I am no fan of IQ tests myself, but I think in most tests they are looking for the most simple and logical answers - and they are trying to create tests that have very little ambiguity. In your sequence it's more logical and simple that the answer is 36, than it is how many bald men walked by your house today. I don't know if IQ tests tell anything about a person's real intelligence, but I think that most intelligent people can become very good at solving these tests.

hc 17y ago

the answer is the simplest possible answer. this isn't obviously well defined, but it can be made so in at least one way: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity

jerf 17y ago
No dice. Kolmogorov complexity is critically dependent on the encoding scheme you use for the complexity measure, and given the nature of the problems in question that's going to really not work. If your encoding scheme favors polynomials but makes expression squares a royal pain, you're going to get a radically different K-complexity number than you will if your encoding goes the other way around. And coming up with both such encodings is trivial. This is why proofs using K-complexity (forgive me, I often misspell it) always use it in a way that doesn't involve actually assigning numbers to the K-complexity; while it has certain desirable properties, there is no unique K-complexity value for a given language. Aaaaand it's exactly this reason I also loathe those questions. It is much less "do this mathematical thing" than "read the puzzle-maker's mind", and quite frequently there is simply literally not enough information in the sequence to read the puzzle-makers mind. With an uncountably infinite number of functions to choose from and a finite set of inputs to choose among them, it's a complete joke of a test. On the other hand, with suitable constraints given in advance it could prove quite useful. (... but that would remove the thrill of lording the answer over people, methinks, which I think is a distressingly large part of such problem's appeal....)
- hc 17y ago
  > you're going to get a radically different K-complexity number than you will if your encoding goes the other way around. in the limit, all schemes are roughly equivalent. (they are equivalent up to constants.) > given the nature of the problems in question that's going to really not work ok. so attempting to compute the kolmogorov complexity for iq test problems is a bad idea. it isnt actually a computable function. its existence shows there is a mathematically rigorous way to talk about the most plausible way to extend an integer sequence. more than anything, this is a counter to the argument that "an uncountably infinite number of functions to choose from and a finite set of inputs to choose among them" makes the test entirely subjective. > there is no unique K-complexity value for a given language. for any given language, there is, unless i dont understand what youre saying. > your encoding scheme favors polynomials but makes expression squares a royal pain i know its wrong, but i cant help pointing out that that doesnt actually make any sense at all

der_ketzer 17y ago

There's a very good movie "The Oxford Murders", where the math professor talks about that. Every sequence has many answers, the trick is to find how to build the sequence you want and when you achieve thar, your answer is as correct as the "right answer".