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I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affil

I completely condemn such nonsense as a bunch of vitriolic people driving a distribution maintainer away from their position all because of their indirect affiliation with a controversial project. Such actions are why I identify with neither the systemd opponents nor the proponents. Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions. Yet as much as the entire display is abominable, it is sadly also completely predictable. For all the good things the systemd crew have done, their ideas are disruptive, in that they're trying to mold a cathedral out of what has been a rather adamantly bazaar-based community for over two decades now. Contrary to popular belief, simply developing your tools in one repository doesn't magically make you "more like the BSDs" - there's far more to the BSDs than that, and every time I see someone make that argument, I twitch. We're in the midst of an unprecedented schism. But, for what it's worth, this isn't an issue with "open source". No, it's an issue with the Linux community in particular. It is particularly dysfunctional. I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. I'm pretty disappointed in all sides here. The people who attack systemd and its developers on completely false premises, and the people who are convinced it's the be all and the end all, and have been living under a sysvinit-based rock their entire lives. It's just so exhausting. It really is. I don't know how this will end. But the irony is intense: an attempt at distro unification has led to a big divide. The best thing we can hope for is people doing a bunch of new experimentation in Unix process management. Projects like Epoch and nosh are up and coming. Hopefully we'll see more.

Stratoscope 12y ago
> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea that the culture of a company or open source is heavily influenced by the behavior of those at the top. How could it not be? As an example of the other end of the spectrum, when I worked at Adobe it was a remarkably courteous place where people treated each other with respect even when they disagreed. I really appreciated that, and I think a good part of it came directly from Adobe founders John Warnock and Chuck Geschke.
- wtallis 12y ago
  At best, people are imitating what they think Linus is doing. But most people miss out on just how rare Linus's rants are, how deserving his targets are when he does let loose and how much they should've known better, and most people aren't as authoritative as Linus.
  - xtrumanx 12y ago
    > ...how deserving his targets are when he does let loose... I think I see the problem here. I don't follow the Linux community that deeply but I've read one of his rants which was belittling and insulting to a volunteer maintainer and the context behind it didn't justify the abuse in my opinion. If you don't appreciate their code, get rid of them. They're probably not trying to intentionally screw up. And if they are, tell them it's not working out and stop working with them. P.S. Would be interesting if "Gaming is misogynistic" folks decide to focus on the Linux community. I can almost see the headlines: "Linux users are dead!"
    - wtallis 12y ago
      So you're saying that a "my way or the highway" policy is more polite and better for the health of the project and developer community than the occasional bit of colorful language? It seems to me that the former is a much bigger insult in an "actions speak louder than words" kind of way, especially coming from people for whom the primary concern is producing working code, not politics.
      - xtrumanx 12y ago
        1. I'm not complaining about colorful language. There's a difference between that and insulting people. > I don't understand why it's so hard to fucking understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. > wtallis, you've got to be the biggest fucking idiot to not understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. See the difference? 2. I'm not familiar with the way the Linux kernel contributions are managed. I assumed from what I've heard that Linus is in charge and can reject patches. If that is the case, than a "my way or the highway" policy is the current policy. I may be wrong in this regard so please feel free to clear up any misunderstanding I may have.
protomyth 12y ago
> Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions. This is a time honored way to destroy your opponents in politics even if their argument is better, more consistent, and logical. Associate them with radicals that glom onto any side with sufficient numbers. It works and frustrates those that come by their beliefs honestly. It is truly sad when this happens and is allowed to obscure a discussion.

Stratoscope 12y ago

> I have no idea why Linux attracts so much drama and carnage amongst its constituents, but it does. It starts right from the top, just like the similar situation in the Rails community. When your founder and leader behaves a certain way, it gives everyone in the community license to act like that. Edit: I seem to have touched a nerve here. My apology to anyone my comment offended. Nonetheless, I stand by the idea that the culture of a company or open source is heavily influenced by the behavior of those at the top. How could it not be? As an example of the other end of the spectrum, when I worked at Adobe it was a remarkably courteous place where people treated each other with respect even when they disagreed. I really appreciated that, and I think a good part of it came directly from Adobe founders John Warnock and Chuck Geschke.

wtallis 12y ago
At best, people are imitating what they think Linus is doing. But most people miss out on just how rare Linus's rants are, how deserving his targets are when he does let loose and how much they should've known better, and most people aren't as authoritative as Linus.
- xtrumanx 12y ago
  > ...how deserving his targets are when he does let loose... I think I see the problem here. I don't follow the Linux community that deeply but I've read one of his rants which was belittling and insulting to a volunteer maintainer and the context behind it didn't justify the abuse in my opinion. If you don't appreciate their code, get rid of them. They're probably not trying to intentionally screw up. And if they are, tell them it's not working out and stop working with them. P.S. Would be interesting if "Gaming is misogynistic" folks decide to focus on the Linux community. I can almost see the headlines: "Linux users are dead!"
  - wtallis 12y ago
    So you're saying that a "my way or the highway" policy is more polite and better for the health of the project and developer community than the occasional bit of colorful language? It seems to me that the former is a much bigger insult in an "actions speak louder than words" kind of way, especially coming from people for whom the primary concern is producing working code, not politics.
    - xtrumanx 12y ago
      1. I'm not complaining about colorful language. There's a difference between that and insulting people. > I don't understand why it's so hard to fucking understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. > wtallis, you've got to be the biggest fucking idiot to not understand how Linus' behavior is abhorrent. See the difference? 2. I'm not familiar with the way the Linux kernel contributions are managed. I assumed from what I've heard that Linus is in charge and can reject patches. If that is the case, than a "my way or the highway" policy is the current policy. I may be wrong in this regard so please feel free to clear up any misunderstanding I may have.

protomyth 12y ago

> Unfortunately, it does dilute arguments against systemd, because of immediate associations with fools who attack people and scream fallacies (even though the non-systemd camp is an amorphous blob more than anything). This in turn gives moral high ground to the proponents and any attempt at debate devolves into the same dead ends and non-arguments between equally clueless factions. This is a time honored way to destroy your opponents in politics even if their argument is better, more consistent, and logical. Associate them with radicals that glom onto any side with sufficient numbers. It works and frustrates those that come by their beliefs honestly. It is truly sad when this happens and is allowed to obscure a discussion.