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I was really surprised by the results. When I created this instapanel I was a strong "Yes" on Prop E - governments need to raise funds, so why not tax vices. W

by d2vid 12y ago

I was really surprised by the results. When I created this instapanel I was a strong "Yes" on Prop E - governments need to raise funds, so why not tax vices. Watching the responses, I've changed my vote to "No". The panelists raised a lot of great points about the holes in Prop E. It's only SF so people will just drive to Daly City to stock up on soda. There are tons of sugary products that won't be taxed. It's a tax at the distributor level, so businesses will just get their soda from outside the city. It's a regressive tax. On and on.

melling 12y ago
Why would you ever think adding additional taxes to other products is the best way to make up for a government deficit? Certainly makes things more complicated and may have unintended consequences. Shouldn't we be trying to simplify the system? Anyway, I'm not economist either. Perhaps it's best if someone could referred to economic theory, instead of what feels right.
- d2vid 12y ago
  We tax income, even though we agree that income is a good thing. Why not tax cigarettes, soda, pollution, and other bad things. The dead-weight loss from the tax is actually a good thing in these cases. Agreed that there are always unintended consequences, I don't really know for sure, and democracy is unfortunately usually about feelings.
- cortesoft 12y ago
  Every tax will do two things: raise revenue and modify behavior. Usually, the purpose of the tax is the former, but you need to remember that the latter will still happen. In the case of income tax, you raise revenue but you change behavior in a negative way (discouraging work). If you instead tax vices and consumption, you can raise money while not causing negative behavior changes (and maybe instead causing good behavior changes). However, as the parent comment pointed out, you have to really look deeply at a tax to figure out how it will affect behavior. It won't always be in the desired way.
maerF0x0 12y ago
The "drive out of the city to buy" still is a form of disincentive/tax. Its just paid to the oil companies instead of schools :( I also like how the myth of fatty food causing obesity is repeated a few times in the panelists. Clearly not experts on nutrition or its effects on the human body.
- d2vid 12y ago
  If you watch Jude's video, she says she bicycles to Daly City to buy her cigarettes because they're too expensive in SF, and threatens that she'll just start doing that for soda too. Get people to bicycle an hour for cigarettes and soda? That's a public health official's dream.
  - pistle 12y ago
    It also shows you how little someone might value their time. If I take a 20 minute walk or ride to get something which could be had 1 minute away, I better be able to save a whole lotta bills.
- DanBC 12y ago
  > I also like how the myth of fatty food causing obesity is repeated a few times in the panelists. Clearly not experts on nutrition or its effects on the human body. Do you really believe this or is it some kind of satire? edit: not snarking, I genuinely can't tell if parent thinks fatty food does not contribute to obesity. Obese people aren't obese just because they eat far too much sugar. They're obese because they eat far too much sugar, starch, and fat. It is ridiculous to think that the amount of fat in an obese person's diet has no influence on that person's obesity.
  - ebbv 12y ago
    The parent to your comment is probably someone who has bought into the keto (read: re-named Atkins) diet.
    - maerF0x0 12y ago
vlucas 12y ago
"governments need to raise funds" Sounds like you are under the false impression that governments are the ideal size, need to grow larger, or are able to spend money efficiently. Almost all state and city budgets are in a crunch due to mis-management and over-spending, not do to any kind of shortfall in tax collection. Always vote NO on crap like this. The less ways the government has to collect taxes, the better.

by d2vid 12y ago

melling 12y ago

Why would you ever think adding additional taxes to other products is the best way to make up for a government deficit? Certainly makes things more complicated and may have unintended consequences. Shouldn't we be trying to simplify the system? Anyway, I'm not economist either. Perhaps it's best if someone could referred to economic theory, instead of what feels right.

d2vid 12y ago
We tax income, even though we agree that income is a good thing. Why not tax cigarettes, soda, pollution, and other bad things. The dead-weight loss from the tax is actually a good thing in these cases. Agreed that there are always unintended consequences, I don't really know for sure, and democracy is unfortunately usually about feelings.
cortesoft 12y ago
Every tax will do two things: raise revenue and modify behavior. Usually, the purpose of the tax is the former, but you need to remember that the latter will still happen. In the case of income tax, you raise revenue but you change behavior in a negative way (discouraging work). If you instead tax vices and consumption, you can raise money while not causing negative behavior changes (and maybe instead causing good behavior changes). However, as the parent comment pointed out, you have to really look deeply at a tax to figure out how it will affect behavior. It won't always be in the desired way.

maerF0x0 12y ago

The "drive out of the city to buy" still is a form of disincentive/tax. Its just paid to the oil companies instead of schools :( I also like how the myth of fatty food causing obesity is repeated a few times in the panelists. Clearly not experts on nutrition or its effects on the human body.

d2vid 12y ago
If you watch Jude's video, she says she bicycles to Daly City to buy her cigarettes because they're too expensive in SF, and threatens that she'll just start doing that for soda too. Get people to bicycle an hour for cigarettes and soda? That's a public health official's dream.
- pistle 12y ago
  It also shows you how little someone might value their time. If I take a 20 minute walk or ride to get something which could be had 1 minute away, I better be able to save a whole lotta bills.
DanBC 12y ago
> I also like how the myth of fatty food causing obesity is repeated a few times in the panelists. Clearly not experts on nutrition or its effects on the human body. Do you really believe this or is it some kind of satire? edit: not snarking, I genuinely can't tell if parent thinks fatty food does not contribute to obesity. Obese people aren't obese just because they eat far too much sugar. They're obese because they eat far too much sugar, starch, and fat. It is ridiculous to think that the amount of fat in an obese person's diet has no influence on that person's obesity.
- ebbv 12y ago
  The parent to your comment is probably someone who has bought into the keto (read: re-named Atkins) diet.
  - maerF0x0 12y ago

vlucas 12y ago

"governments need to raise funds" Sounds like you are under the false impression that governments are the ideal size, need to grow larger, or are able to spend money efficiently. Almost all state and city budgets are in a crunch due to mis-management and over-spending, not do to any kind of shortfall in tax collection. Always vote NO on crap like this. The less ways the government has to collect taxes, the better.