11 ms·

An ad hominem attack voted up to the top is one giveaway that the rebuttals are emotional, rather than counter-arguments supported by facts.

krapp 12y ago
The suggestion that the thread must be full of Google shills and that critics can be dismissed out of hand as part of the conspiracy is also an emotional argument unsupported by evidence.
- smokeyj 12y ago
  We can agree this thread is full of shills, just possibly not google shills.
  - krapp 12y ago
    How do you tell the difference between a shill and someone who actually holds an opposing point of view? It might be true, but Hacker News has a diverse userbase and it might as well be false. Using the term seems to me to be just a way to dismiss the credibility of critics - it's a thought terminating cliche.
    - smokeyj 12y ago
      > How do you tell the difference between a shill and someone who actually holds an opposing point of view? Shills make ad hominem attacks they can't back up. Such as the (at the time) top rated comment calling Assange a "nut" and backing it up with "I just don't have the patience to sit and list out why his other points are equally silly for anyone versed in the space". Shills don't want to have a discussion. They want to call names and end the discussion. I think HN could do without.
      - PeterisP 12y ago
        Those two points apply also to quite many "normal" non-shill commenters on the internet, and realistically you should expect "misinformed ranter vulgaris" to outnumber actual shills 100-to-1 in most discussions.
    - colordrops 12y ago
      Shills are easy to detect, as they out of character with the typical tone and style of messages on a particular forum. They also tend to have egregious flaws in reasoning and use emotional and heated personal attacks against the person or topic in question. The posts often get pushed to the top more quickly than usual. It has already been revealed that government agencies use sock puppets and other techniques to manipulate popular and influential message boards, such as Reddit and Hacker News: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-online-polls-ways-british-spies-seek-control-internet/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-o... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope... Also, as many of you here on Hacker News should know, marginally ethical marketing techniques are commonly used by tech and other companies, including bought articles and opinion pieces, astro turfing, sock puppets, guerrilla marketing, software to assist in targeting specific forums and message boards, vote brigading etc. See: http://www.blackhatworld.com/ http://www.blackhatworld.com/
      - xnull2guest 12y ago
        I disagree about how hard it is to find a shill. I'm never certain and I don't think you can be. You should register everything you read online as at least slightly suspect. Thanks for the information and the arguments supported by links. Here are some other links for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Business_and_adoption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Business_and_adop... http://swampland.time.com/2012/11/07/inside-the-secret-world-of-quants-and-data-crunchers-who-helped-obama-win/ http://swampland.time.com/2012/11/07/inside-the-secret-world... http://mprcenter.org/blog/2013/01/how-obama-won-the-social-media-battle-in-the-2012-presidential-campaign/ http://mprcenter.org/blog/2013/01/how-obama-won-the-social-m... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing "Maraya helps you, through its proprietary tools and templates, dialogue with and retain your online audience effectively for high social media ROI. Maraya Media’s intelligent dialogue platform offers brands, agencies, community managers, publishers and individuals alike a range of social media management solutions that enables them to intelligently manage, engage, recruit and retain fans, followers and customers online. The offering ranges from social network management and campaign publishing, through strategic audience dialogue, message and campaign planning, brand partnership and collaboration, social conversation innovation, analysis and optimization." http://www.marayamedia.com/company.php http://www.marayamedia.com/company.php https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140224/17054826340/new-snowden-doc-reveals-how-gchqnsa-use-internet-to-manipulate-deceive-destroy-reputations.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140224/17054826340/new-s... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The... I would only add that the US uses these techniques with other countries all the time - and in fact that's what this article is ultimately about. Google's role. http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-to-undermine-cuban-government-with-fake-twitter-another-anti-castro-failure/2014/04/03/c0142cc0-bb75-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-t... http://minerva.dtic.mil/ http://minerva.dtic.mil/

krapp 12y ago

The suggestion that the thread must be full of Google shills and that critics can be dismissed out of hand as part of the conspiracy is also an emotional argument unsupported by evidence.

smokeyj 12y ago
We can agree this thread is full of shills, just possibly not google shills.
- krapp 12y ago
  How do you tell the difference between a shill and someone who actually holds an opposing point of view? It might be true, but Hacker News has a diverse userbase and it might as well be false. Using the term seems to me to be just a way to dismiss the credibility of critics - it's a thought terminating cliche.
  - smokeyj 12y ago
    > How do you tell the difference between a shill and someone who actually holds an opposing point of view? Shills make ad hominem attacks they can't back up. Such as the (at the time) top rated comment calling Assange a "nut" and backing it up with "I just don't have the patience to sit and list out why his other points are equally silly for anyone versed in the space". Shills don't want to have a discussion. They want to call names and end the discussion. I think HN could do without.
    - PeterisP 12y ago
      Those two points apply also to quite many "normal" non-shill commenters on the internet, and realistically you should expect "misinformed ranter vulgaris" to outnumber actual shills 100-to-1 in most discussions.
  - colordrops 12y ago
    Shills are easy to detect, as they out of character with the typical tone and style of messages on a particular forum. They also tend to have egregious flaws in reasoning and use emotional and heated personal attacks against the person or topic in question. The posts often get pushed to the top more quickly than usual. It has already been revealed that government agencies use sock puppets and other techniques to manipulate popular and influential message boards, such as Reddit and Hacker News: https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-online-polls-ways-british-spies-seek-control-internet/ https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/07/14/manipulating-o... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope... Also, as many of you here on Hacker News should know, marginally ethical marketing techniques are commonly used by tech and other companies, including bought articles and opinion pieces, astro turfing, sock puppets, guerrilla marketing, software to assist in targeting specific forums and message boards, vote brigading etc. See: http://www.blackhatworld.com/ http://www.blackhatworld.com/
    - xnull2guest 12y ago
      I disagree about how hard it is to find a shill. I'm never certain and I don't think you can be. You should register everything you read online as at least slightly suspect. Thanks for the information and the arguments supported by links. Here are some other links for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Business_and_adoption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing#Business_and_adop... http://swampland.time.com/2012/11/07/inside-the-secret-world-of-quants-and-data-crunchers-who-helped-obama-win/ http://swampland.time.com/2012/11/07/inside-the-secret-world... http://mprcenter.org/blog/2013/01/how-obama-won-the-social-media-battle-in-the-2012-presidential-campaign/ http://mprcenter.org/blog/2013/01/how-obama-won-the-social-m... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBGary#Astroturfing "Maraya helps you, through its proprietary tools and templates, dialogue with and retain your online audience effectively for high social media ROI. Maraya Media’s intelligent dialogue platform offers brands, agencies, community managers, publishers and individuals alike a range of social media management solutions that enables them to intelligently manage, engage, recruit and retain fans, followers and customers online. The offering ranges from social network management and campaign publishing, through strategic audience dialogue, message and campaign planning, brand partnership and collaboration, social conversation innovation, analysis and optimization." http://www.marayamedia.com/company.php http://www.marayamedia.com/company.php https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140224/17054826340/new-snowden-doc-reveals-how-gchqnsa-use-internet-to-manipulate-deceive-destroy-reputations.shtml https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140224/17054826340/new-s... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The-HB-Gary-Email-That-Should-Concern-Us-All http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/02/16/945768/-UPDATED-The... I would only add that the US uses these techniques with other countries all the time - and in fact that's what this article is ultimately about. Google's role. http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-to-undermine-cuban-government-with-fake-twitter-another-anti-castro-failure/2014/04/03/c0142cc0-bb75-11e3-9a05-c739f29ccb08_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/usaid-effort-t... http://minerva.dtic.mil/ http://minerva.dtic.mil/