7 ms·

In Spain, Politics via Reddit

95 points by loomio 12y ago

spindritf 12y ago
Hard to imagine a better place for leftist populism than Reddit. The fact that it's not popular in Spain is a feature here, allowed them to target the most engaged first. With the language barrier, probably also younger and better educated. It’s still early to predict what is in store for Podemos. I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy, just like dozens of parties across Europe who manage a decent showing in the European elections and then don't pass the threshold or only do it as a random plankton coalition. That, and direct, all-inclusive democracy generally doesn't work. But they're ditching that from the looks of it so who knows.
- skrebbel 12y ago
  > plankton coalition Amazing term! Did you just invent that on the spot or is it a thing?
  - spindritf 12y ago
    I borrowed it from Polish "plankton polityczny" (political plankton) which is a not uncommon term for MPs who are not members of any significant party in the parliament but also when they lack broader support. Slightly derisive.
    - skrebbel 12y ago
      Ahh Polish. You guys are true artists when it comes to telling the truth in creative (and often rude) ways. My compliments!
- vitobcn 12y ago
  Obviously time will tell, but it doesn't look like "Podemos" will fade away anytime soon. Spanish politics have been very polarized with only two major parties sharing the power since the end of Franco's dictatorship (late 70s). During the last few years (and amplified by the economic crisis) people have been growing weary of their actions and general perception of impunity. Podemos is a young political party born as a reaction to that. Here [1], you can see the last official government polls (from July 14), where the declining trend for major political parties is very clear, and Podemos as a new party is the 3rd most popular option. The next polls should confirm the trend, but the general feeling in Spain is that Podemos is still growing in popularity. Note: I'm originally from Spain, although not currently living there. edit: This additional poll from Sept 29th [2] (in Spanish) confirms the Podemos rising trend I was referring to. [1]: http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/08/04/media/1407160041_786585.html http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/08/04/media/1407160041_786585.... [2]: http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/pierde-puntos-intencion-voto-pero-sigue-siendo-opcion-preferida_2014100600139.html http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/pierde-puntos-inten...
- pyriku 12y ago
  I am not sure how aware are you of Spain's political and social situation. Not being a fully "Podemos" supporter I think is something is going to stay around for long. People are tired of corrupted politicians after years of crisis and them not fixing anything, and just being perceived as stealing money... Podemos appeared in the exact moment to take that momentum and is getting support from people everywhere: students, middle-age people, elderly people... Don't think they'll win the 2015 elections but they'll play an important role for sure.
- Imerso 12y ago
  That's not what politics in Europe look at all at the moment. The extreme right and the extreme left are growing a lot. And the center-right and center-left are pretty much merging in many countries, they are either governing in coalition, or they will have to govern in coalition in the near future if they want to remain in power. Syriza in Greece won the European elections and may govern in the future. FN is rising in France. UKIP in UK. And in Spain Podemos is not fizzling out at all, the last polls put it as the 3rd party and getting very close to be the 2nd one, and even if they disappear what the polls seem very sure about is that neither center-right nor center-left could govern by themselves, and if they need to create a coalition that would mean political suicide for any future elections, at least with the current political atmosphere, maybe they are able to sell that coalition somehow. But there's probably too much corruption at the moment to sell it as anything else than as the last "let's keep stealing money" card.
  - spindritf 12y ago
    That's the problem with trends, they can turn. I'm sticking with it though, I've seen protest and single-issue parties make it all the way to the government before sliding back into single digits or complete irrelevance. There's a reason mainstream parties are mainstream. Usually, they adjust to push out new contenders. Although the immigration issue (a driver for FN and UKIP) is interesting because some are far too invested to turn around now.
    - mercurial 12y ago
      This Podemos thing is reminiscent of the Five-Star movement in Italy, which apparently did well at the EU elections earlier this year.
  - raldi 12y ago
    What is your extreme right like? I'm curious where their views would fall on the American spectrum.
    - spindritf 12y ago
      On the continent, less free-market and much more nationalistic. UKIP is pretty close to American right with vouchers, cutting spending... they even picked up private gun ownership lately.
- slapresta 12y ago
  It's trailing the two major political parties by just a few points. I wouldn't be surprised if it had vanished ten years for now (I would consider that a good sign, actually; it's a party born out of a need for political transformation, it's not meant to stay) but I would also be surprised if it didn't win the next elections.
- Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago
  > leftist populism Populism as opposed to what? To the current ruling party, who has met exactly 0% of their electoral promises, who promised 4M jobs in their four-year term and has created approximately zero in three years, who promised not to cut spending on healthcare and education and has made tremendous cuts? Or maybe as opposed to the main party of the opposition, who promised zero unemployment and brought employment up to 25%, and who denied that there was a crisis at all in the 2008 election campaign in spite of knowing perfectly (as anyone educated and informed knew) that the bubble was bursting? It's very funny how people label Podemos as "populist" as if they had brought populism to Spain. Yes, Podemos is certainly populist... but no more than the two main parties and other not-so-main ones.
- lmboullosa 12y ago
  Haha. You're so wrong.
- lukeschlather 12y ago
  I don't know where you're living, but Occupy has a pretty strong showing every May here in Seattle... they're also Kshama Sawant's base. (First socialist on the city council since 1877.) A lot has to happen before Occupy fizzles out around here.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy Fizzle != Violently repressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNvxp8qSOKU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNvxp8qSOKU
huehue 12y ago
This party is what happens when you let college students play around running communist experiments. What they're doing is taking advantage of the discontent of the population towards their politicians then advertising themselves as the only true alternative to the current bipartidism so they can push their agenda. The so called circles are simply circle-jerk groups where outliers are not welcome. So much for citizenship 2.0.
ghostDancer 12y ago
Podemos is just a symptom to the problem of corruption in the two main parties, they even menace to make a coalition if they can lose control over the power centers, and with the crisis and unemployment is the way of escape of many of the frustrations of the people. I don't know if they'll survive or will be assimilated(probably) but if they shake the dirty and corrupted politics of Spain is welcome.
r0dia 12y ago
I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this causes great confusion. Formal democracy is not about the content of laws (eg: laws to protect Human Rights), but about the rules that define the democratic game, rules that ensure that the People is in charge at all times (constitutional liberty). Real democracy is about the content and this explains why it is prone to have an ideological battle. The most important requirements are: 1.- Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system. 2.- Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government. 3.- Imperative mandate: Sieyes abolished it during the French Revolution and it still to be restored in all Europe. The elected candidates in the legislative elections should remain loyal to their promises. 4.- Different elections: for executive and legislative (like in France) Podemos doesn't care about any of these things as far as I concern. In my modest view there is no possible reform, the problem is not the people in charge (Podemos guys seem honest), but the actual political system that doesn't fulfill any of the requirements. We haven't conquered our Liberty yet.
- aptwebapps 12y ago
  I think you have a different definition of 'left' than most Americans, so there might be some disconnect there. Here, it just means socialist progressive (or in the direction of the same), more or less.
  - ep103 12y ago
    Yes, but the meaning of left in America is so far off the definition for the entire rest of the world, it is hardly worth considering.
    - aptwebapps 12y ago
joeyspn 12y ago
Podemos is undoubtedly an Internet phenomena. A modern and open party that not just uses Reddit for coordination and keeping in touch with its voters, but also makes use of tools like Agora Voting[0] for Liquid Democracy/online referendums, and mobile apps for transparent group decisions. They say about themselves that "they're not really a Party but a tool for disrupting politics" and I think this is quite accurate... they've gone from 0 to front-runner in 5 months. [0] https://github.com/agoravoting/agora-ciudadana https://github.com/agoravoting/agora-ciudadana
- im_dario 12y ago
  Actually, there were other parties in Spain using Agora, like Confederación Pirata [0] (the Spanish pirate party). Indeed, Agora's core developers are tightly related to the Pirate movement. As a pirate, I'm happy to see other parties using our tools and I'm also glad to have somebody disrupting our political landscape but pirates are also "a tool for disrupting". We just disrupted it sharing our experience and favorite tools! :) [0] https://agora.confederacionpirata.org/ https://agora.confederacionpirata.org/
deleted 12y ago
[deleted]

95 points by loomio 12y ago

Hard to imagine a better place for leftist populism than Reddit. The fact that it's not popular in Spain is a feature here, allowed them to target the most engaged first. With the language barrier, probably also younger and better educated. It’s still early to predict what is in store for Podemos. I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy, just like dozens of parties across Europe who manage a decent showing in the European elections and then don't pass the threshold or only do it as a random plankton coalition. That, and direct, all-inclusive democracy generally doesn't work. But they're ditching that from the looks of it so who knows.

skrebbel 12y ago
> plankton coalition Amazing term! Did you just invent that on the spot or is it a thing?
- spindritf 12y ago
  I borrowed it from Polish "plankton polityczny" (political plankton) which is a not uncommon term for MPs who are not members of any significant party in the parliament but also when they lack broader support. Slightly derisive.
  - skrebbel 12y ago
    Ahh Polish. You guys are true artists when it comes to telling the truth in creative (and often rude) ways. My compliments!
vitobcn 12y ago
Obviously time will tell, but it doesn't look like "Podemos" will fade away anytime soon. Spanish politics have been very polarized with only two major parties sharing the power since the end of Franco's dictatorship (late 70s). During the last few years (and amplified by the economic crisis) people have been growing weary of their actions and general perception of impunity. Podemos is a young political party born as a reaction to that. Here [1], you can see the last official government polls (from July 14), where the declining trend for major political parties is very clear, and Podemos as a new party is the 3rd most popular option. The next polls should confirm the trend, but the general feeling in Spain is that Podemos is still growing in popularity. Note: I'm originally from Spain, although not currently living there. edit: This additional poll from Sept 29th [2] (in Spanish) confirms the Podemos rising trend I was referring to. [1]: http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/08/04/media/1407160041_786585.html http://elpais.com/elpais/2014/08/04/media/1407160041_786585.... [2]: http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/pierde-puntos-intencion-voto-pero-sigue-siendo-opcion-preferida_2014100600139.html http://www.lasexta.com/noticias/nacional/pierde-puntos-inten...
pyriku 12y ago
I am not sure how aware are you of Spain's political and social situation. Not being a fully "Podemos" supporter I think is something is going to stay around for long. People are tired of corrupted politicians after years of crisis and them not fixing anything, and just being perceived as stealing money... Podemos appeared in the exact moment to take that momentum and is getting support from people everywhere: students, middle-age people, elderly people... Don't think they'll win the 2015 elections but they'll play an important role for sure.
Imerso 12y ago
That's not what politics in Europe look at all at the moment. The extreme right and the extreme left are growing a lot. And the center-right and center-left are pretty much merging in many countries, they are either governing in coalition, or they will have to govern in coalition in the near future if they want to remain in power. Syriza in Greece won the European elections and may govern in the future. FN is rising in France. UKIP in UK. And in Spain Podemos is not fizzling out at all, the last polls put it as the 3rd party and getting very close to be the 2nd one, and even if they disappear what the polls seem very sure about is that neither center-right nor center-left could govern by themselves, and if they need to create a coalition that would mean political suicide for any future elections, at least with the current political atmosphere, maybe they are able to sell that coalition somehow. But there's probably too much corruption at the moment to sell it as anything else than as the last "let's keep stealing money" card.
- spindritf 12y ago
  That's the problem with trends, they can turn. I'm sticking with it though, I've seen protest and single-issue parties make it all the way to the government before sliding back into single digits or complete irrelevance. There's a reason mainstream parties are mainstream. Usually, they adjust to push out new contenders. Although the immigration issue (a driver for FN and UKIP) is interesting because some are far too invested to turn around now.
  - mercurial 12y ago
    This Podemos thing is reminiscent of the Five-Star movement in Italy, which apparently did well at the EU elections earlier this year.
- raldi 12y ago
  What is your extreme right like? I'm curious where their views would fall on the American spectrum.
  - spindritf 12y ago
    On the continent, less free-market and much more nationalistic. UKIP is pretty close to American right with vouchers, cutting spending... they even picked up private gun ownership lately.
slapresta 12y ago
It's trailing the two major political parties by just a few points. I wouldn't be surprised if it had vanished ten years for now (I would consider that a good sign, actually; it's a party born out of a need for political transformation, it's not meant to stay) but I would also be surprised if it didn't win the next elections.
Al-Khwarizmi 12y ago
> leftist populism Populism as opposed to what? To the current ruling party, who has met exactly 0% of their electoral promises, who promised 4M jobs in their four-year term and has created approximately zero in three years, who promised not to cut spending on healthcare and education and has made tremendous cuts? Or maybe as opposed to the main party of the opposition, who promised zero unemployment and brought employment up to 25%, and who denied that there was a crisis at all in the 2008 election campaign in spite of knowing perfectly (as anyone educated and informed knew) that the bubble was bursting? It's very funny how people label Podemos as "populist" as if they had brought populism to Spain. Yes, Podemos is certainly populist... but no more than the two main parties and other not-so-main ones.
lmboullosa 12y ago
Haha. You're so wrong.
lukeschlather 12y ago
I don't know where you're living, but Occupy has a pretty strong showing every May here in Seattle... they're also Kshama Sawant's base. (First socialist on the city council since 1877.) A lot has to happen before Occupy fizzles out around here.
crdoconnor 12y ago
>I'll take a shot: it'll fizzle out, just like Occupy Fizzle != Violently repressed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNvxp8qSOKU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNvxp8qSOKU

huehue 12y ago

This party is what happens when you let college students play around running communist experiments. What they're doing is taking advantage of the discontent of the population towards their politicians then advertising themselves as the only true alternative to the current bipartidism so they can push their agenda. The so called circles are simply circle-jerk groups where outliers are not welcome. So much for citizenship 2.0.

ghostDancer 12y ago

Podemos is just a symptom to the problem of corruption in the two main parties, they even menace to make a coalition if they can lose control over the power centers, and with the crisis and unemployment is the way of escape of many of the frustrations of the people. I don't know if they'll survive or will be assimilated(probably) but if they shake the dirty and corrupted politics of Spain is welcome.

r0dia 12y ago

I would like to rant a bit if you don't mind. There is no political Left in Europe. Podemos is not a leftist party, since no leftist party or democratic conservative party would ever get paid by the State and be part of it (like the Nazi party). It's a contradiction in terms and something that simply cannot be. Most of the people don't know the distinction between formal democracy and real(social) democracy and this causes great confusion. Formal democracy is not about the content of laws (eg: laws to protect Human Rights), but about the rules that define the democratic game, rules that ensure that the People is in charge at all times (constitutional liberty). Real democracy is about the content and this explains why it is prone to have an ideological battle. The most important requirements are: 1.- Representativeness: not possible in Spain, Italy, Germany, Greece, Portugal among others, since they use the proportional list system. 2.- Separation of powers: not happening in Spain. The most voted political party in the legislative elections forms government. 3.- Imperative mandate: Sieyes abolished it during the French Revolution and it still to be restored in all Europe. The elected candidates in the legislative elections should remain loyal to their promises. 4.- Different elections: for executive and legislative (like in France) Podemos doesn't care about any of these things as far as I concern. In my modest view there is no possible reform, the problem is not the people in charge (Podemos guys seem honest), but the actual political system that doesn't fulfill any of the requirements. We haven't conquered our Liberty yet.

aptwebapps 12y ago
I think you have a different definition of 'left' than most Americans, so there might be some disconnect there. Here, it just means socialist progressive (or in the direction of the same), more or less.
- ep103 12y ago
  Yes, but the meaning of left in America is so far off the definition for the entire rest of the world, it is hardly worth considering.
  - aptwebapps 12y ago

joeyspn 12y ago

Podemos is undoubtedly an Internet phenomena. A modern and open party that not just uses Reddit for coordination and keeping in touch with its voters, but also makes use of tools like Agora Voting[0] for Liquid Democracy/online referendums, and mobile apps for transparent group decisions. They say about themselves that "they're not really a Party but a tool for disrupting politics" and I think this is quite accurate... they've gone from 0 to front-runner in 5 months. [0] https://github.com/agoravoting/agora-ciudadana https://github.com/agoravoting/agora-ciudadana

im_dario 12y ago
Actually, there were other parties in Spain using Agora, like Confederación Pirata [0] (the Spanish pirate party). Indeed, Agora's core developers are tightly related to the Pirate movement. As a pirate, I'm happy to see other parties using our tools and I'm also glad to have somebody disrupting our political landscape but pirates are also "a tool for disrupting". We just disrupted it sharing our experience and favorite tools! :) [0] https://agora.confederacionpirata.org/ https://agora.confederacionpirata.org/

deleted 12y ago

[deleted]