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>> if you actually knew how to spell the name The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that

>> if you actually knew how to spell the name The commenter spelled correctly in the GP of the comment where it was wrongly spelled. But you probably knew that... I tried to not read the rest, so I would be tempted to discuss your claims. (If Hamas organize quite independent cells, it is hard to not claim responsibility when those cells do what they usually do. Hamas really have a long history of making heroes out of people targeting civilians. You might also note that the ones that did a revenge murder will end up in jail. Then we might comment on the hypocrisy of first shooting (at civilians!) from civilian areas -- then blaming the other side when return fire kills civilians...)

cyphunk 12y ago
To put things into perspective, a couple years ago North Korea sunk, without provocation, a South Korean ship with some >20 soldiers on board. Yet no war started. This year rebels in eastern Ukraine downed a civilian plane with >200 civilians, many from the Netherlands, using weapons supplied to them by Russia. Yet no war started. Not only but two war ships sold by France to Russia, sitting in EU harbours, continued onward with their training of Russian solders. Israel baited the public into hate-mongering, directed that hate at an enemy under false pretence and then began a military campaign that was grotesque (based on facts at: 1,2). The public will never forget this. I grew up in Israel during the 2nd intifada and watched the west bank empty itself of the majority of the moderate populace with anyone that could move elsewhere doing so. We are watching the same thing happen more slowly now with the Israeli public. First the moderate Israeli became a minority due to the 2nd intifada and then the more liberal have begun a mass exodus both due to the general environment of hate and ridiculous cost of living and work standards (of all OECD countries they work more hours per year than most [3]). The next 15 years is going to be a very interesting time for Israeli politics. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_... 3: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS
- BugBrother 12y ago
  You really handpicked the references about the teenagers. Hamas has admitted it was their cell, it has been discussed in other comments. Sigh... At least be honest about well known facts. :-( http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil... About the examples: - That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.) - North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas. ------- On the subject... So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.) Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?
  - cyphunk 12y ago
    I appreciate this response. You have brought us to the chicken and egg situation. I do believe Israel has reason to respond to artillery. I will also admit that Israel does not have the leverage South Korea does or EU/US do in the examples I gave. The lack of leverage is however partially their doing. 60+ years of occupation can do this. They took away the option of destroying their enemies economy because they already did that. They took away the option of removing their freedom of movement and sense of self-sufficiency because they have already done that. Finally they took away their ability for basic survival as they already starve the citizens of Gaza. So it is likely all they have left is to bomb. I have issue with the false pretence and escalation and I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway. It's just a dead body. https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784 The stats concerning collateral damage in the previous war are astounding. Looking at only the percentage of children and women killed in comparison of the over all total, one has to be gobsmacked at any excuses. I seem to remember this number alone being more than 50% of all deaths. Considering that they were all likely not "combatants" one should also assume that a significant portion of the male deaths were also not combatant. I highly doubt Israel intended to kill so many innocent people but can't see any other explanation other than just turning a blind eye. It was, without a doubt, grotesque.

cyphunk 12y ago

To put things into perspective, a couple years ago North Korea sunk, without provocation, a South Korean ship with some >20 soldiers on board. Yet no war started. This year rebels in eastern Ukraine downed a civilian plane with >200 civilians, many from the Netherlands, using weapons supplied to them by Russia. Yet no war started. Not only but two war ships sold by France to Russia, sitting in EU harbours, continued onward with their training of Russian solders. Israel baited the public into hate-mongering, directed that hate at an enemy under false pretence and then began a military campaign that was grotesque (based on facts at: 1,2). The public will never forget this. I grew up in Israel during the 2nd intifada and watched the west bank empty itself of the majority of the moderate populace with anyone that could move elsewhere doing so. We are watching the same thing happen more slowly now with the Israeli public. First the moderate Israeli became a minority due to the 2nd intifada and then the more liberal have begun a mass exodus both due to the general environment of hate and ridiculous cost of living and work standards (of all OECD countries they work more hours per year than most [3]). The next 15 years is going to be a very interesting time for Israeli politics. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_conflict#Immediate_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Israel%E2%80%93Gaza_confl... 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_Israeli_teenagers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_kidnapping_and_murder_of_... 3: http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS http://stats.oecd.org/index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS

BugBrother 12y ago
You really handpicked the references about the teenagers. Hamas has admitted it was their cell, it has been discussed in other comments. Sigh... At least be honest about well known facts. :-( http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil-193125056.html http://news.yahoo.com/hamas-leader--don-t-compare-us-to-isil... About the examples: - That airplane might have been different, if Russia didn't have nuclear weapons. Now the Russian economy will only be crushed, instead. (That France might get an exception through when they'd lose a lot of money is another thing. Which you probably know.) - North Korea is being punished as much as is possible, since that seems to be the only way to get anywhere with evil juntas. ------- On the subject... So, you claim the rocket artillery and terror against Israel civilians would stop if the Israelis stopped trying to stop it? (How!? The last peace gestures from Israel were seen as weakness and resulted in many more attacks.) Or do you think that it is OK to shoot artillery at Je... Israeli civilians... for a few decades?
- cyphunk 12y ago
  I appreciate this response. You have brought us to the chicken and egg situation. I do believe Israel has reason to respond to artillery. I will also admit that Israel does not have the leverage South Korea does or EU/US do in the examples I gave. The lack of leverage is however partially their doing. 60+ years of occupation can do this. They took away the option of destroying their enemies economy because they already did that. They took away the option of removing their freedom of movement and sense of self-sufficiency because they have already done that. Finally they took away their ability for basic survival as they already starve the citizens of Gaza. So it is likely all they have left is to bomb. I have issue with the false pretence and escalation and I would have expected Israel to have reserved killing human shields for some later escalation. it is not a "human shield" if you shoot anyway. It's just a dead body. https://twitter.com/Tolstoved/status/493177973810294784 The stats concerning collateral damage in the previous war are astounding. Looking at only the percentage of children and women killed in comparison of the over all total, one has to be gobsmacked at any excuses. I seem to remember this number alone being more than 50% of all deaths. Considering that they were all likely not "combatants" one should also assume that a significant portion of the male deaths were also not combatant. I highly doubt Israel intended to kill so many innocent people but can't see any other explanation other than just turning a blind eye. It was, without a doubt, grotesque.