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Those groups tend to score way below average on standardized math tests. So it doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest this project could end up just pumping up

Those groups tend to score way below average on standardized math tests. So it doesn't seem like a stretch to suggest this project could end up just pumping up the number of "scientists and mathematicians" by watering down the talent level of the whole field (and doing nothing to increase the number of Ed Wittens, Andrew Wiles, Terry Taos, etc, whom I suspect are a lot more important than 1000 mediocre scientists who scraped by on affirmative action).

yummyfajitas 17y ago
Quite right. Just because group X is underrepresented in Y does not imply that group X is a readily available source of Y's. It's distinctly possible that the cheapest and most effective way to increase the number of scientists would be to recruit more white/asian american men. Without looking carefully at the numbers it is impossible to say.
tokenadult 17y ago
Evidence for what you say in your comment? Citations, please?
- parse_tree 17y ago
  SAT Mathematics 2009 average scores per group: Asian: 587 White: 536 American Indian: 493 Hispanic: 461 Black: 426 Overall: 515 from here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    See also the wikipedia article on race and intelligence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence Note that while the causes of lower intelligence of some groups are disputed (environmental vs genetic), the implications for recruiting scientists and engineers is the same regardless of the cause.
  - tokenadult 17y ago
    Thanks for the reply. Now what you haven't shown here is whether the actual persons who do score high enough to major in math (by the way, is there any evidence how high that is?) have been exhausted in current practice, or whether some (from whatever ethnic group) are turning to other careers. In other words, even if a decade from now there is still an ethnic score gap at high-school-graduating age, there may be some underutilized talented young people among the highest-scoring individuals in the lowest-scoring groups who could beneficially be encouraged to study math. Answering this question takes actual numbers rather than just mean scores--especially because the distribution of scores may not be the same in each ethnic group. As the other participant who replied to your comment (the parent to this comment) mentioned, causation of the group score gap is still very unclear. This year, the gap is what it is, and it may not be the best use of societal resources to try to boost college-age participation in math classes among students who leave high school scoring near the median standard score level on the SAT. But it might be very worthwhile to systematically improve math instruction in the elementary grades http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/fall99/amed1.pdf http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/fall99/ame... and that could have a lot to do with narrowing the group gap, that is raising the total number of students in various ethnic groups who learn enough math through high school to be ready to thrive in math courses in college. From the link you kindly shared: "Mr. Finn, a former education official in the Reagan administration, said he expected the results of the SAT and ACT -- another college entrance exam -- to add fuel to a movement among the nation's governors and school superintendents to come up with consistent national standards for high-school curricula." And from further on in the same article: "Noting the gap in achievement between lower-performing minority students and the general population, College Board officials said those who lagged tended to go to school in poorer districts with fewer resources. 'As a country, we must do better providing students of every background access to the best education,' Mr. Caperton said." Yes, I think there are a currently a lot of laggard high schools--and I shouldn't have to tell any participant familiar with American society what kind of neighborhoods the worst high schools are concentrated in--that do a bad job of teaching math, so it's high time to improve math teaching throughout K-12 schooling in the United States.
    - deleted 17y ago

yummyfajitas 17y ago

Quite right. Just because group X is underrepresented in Y does not imply that group X is a readily available source of Y's. It's distinctly possible that the cheapest and most effective way to increase the number of scientists would be to recruit more white/asian american men. Without looking carefully at the numbers it is impossible to say.

tokenadult 17y ago

Evidence for what you say in your comment? Citations, please?

parse_tree 17y ago
SAT Mathematics 2009 average scores per group: Asian: 587 White: 536 American Indian: 493 Hispanic: 461 Black: 426 Overall: 515 from here: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125121641858657345.html
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  See also the wikipedia article on race and intelligence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence Note that while the causes of lower intelligence of some groups are disputed (environmental vs genetic), the implications for recruiting scientists and engineers is the same regardless of the cause.
- tokenadult 17y ago
  Thanks for the reply. Now what you haven't shown here is whether the actual persons who do score high enough to major in math (by the way, is there any evidence how high that is?) have been exhausted in current practice, or whether some (from whatever ethnic group) are turning to other careers. In other words, even if a decade from now there is still an ethnic score gap at high-school-graduating age, there may be some underutilized talented young people among the highest-scoring individuals in the lowest-scoring groups who could beneficially be encouraged to study math. Answering this question takes actual numbers rather than just mean scores--especially because the distribution of scores may not be the same in each ethnic group. As the other participant who replied to your comment (the parent to this comment) mentioned, causation of the group score gap is still very unclear. This year, the gap is what it is, and it may not be the best use of societal resources to try to boost college-age participation in math classes among students who leave high school scoring near the median standard score level on the SAT. But it might be very worthwhile to systematically improve math instruction in the elementary grades http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.ams.org/notices/200502/fea-kenschaft.pdf http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/fall99/amed1.pdf http://www.aft.org/pubs-reports/american_educator/fall99/ame... and that could have a lot to do with narrowing the group gap, that is raising the total number of students in various ethnic groups who learn enough math through high school to be ready to thrive in math courses in college. From the link you kindly shared: "Mr. Finn, a former education official in the Reagan administration, said he expected the results of the SAT and ACT -- another college entrance exam -- to add fuel to a movement among the nation's governors and school superintendents to come up with consistent national standards for high-school curricula." And from further on in the same article: "Noting the gap in achievement between lower-performing minority students and the general population, College Board officials said those who lagged tended to go to school in poorer districts with fewer resources. 'As a country, we must do better providing students of every background access to the best education,' Mr. Caperton said." Yes, I think there are a currently a lot of laggard high schools--and I shouldn't have to tell any participant familiar with American society what kind of neighborhoods the worst high schools are concentrated in--that do a bad job of teaching math, so it's high time to improve math teaching throughout K-12 schooling in the United States.
  - deleted 17y ago