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Oh please, realize that almost directly it was clear that Soviet divisions wouldn't again "visit" as an answer to democratization in East Europe, the juntas wer

Oh please, realize that almost directly it was clear that Soviet divisions wouldn't again "visit" as an answer to democratization in East Europe, the juntas were gone. And Putin isn't brutal inside the borders, yet. The tendency seems clear. I really wish the best for the Russian people, they if anyone on the planet deserves better after the history. (It is not easy to go democratic for a country with big income from natural resources, see "the oil curse".) (I didn't compare with the German nazis, I noted that citizens are generally not enlightened about atrocities done by their own country, but I'd guess Soviet did have them beaten in absolute numbers. Number of millions, that is.)

mlvljr 12y ago
That guess would be wrong by a decimal order of magnitude then :)
- BugBrother 12y ago
  Hardly a factor ten. Holodomor, the great purge, the red terror, forced resettlements, Gulag... Values between 8 and 61 millions, depending on if the starving are part of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_r...
  - mlvljr 12y ago
    Now, that (and specifically, 50+ M starved to death by the "regime") is a what I'd call a BS view :) But merely the count of those executed during the "repressions" era / total count of Soviet civilian losses during WWII is less than 0.1 (and USSR was not the only side that has suffered from Hitler).
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      Bring your claims to the academic authors -- I quoted 8-61 million from the wikipedia page, which quoted the researchers. The researchers seem to differ in, amongst other points, how much of the hunger was planned. Quotes from the wikipedia page I referenced, with different researchers: "Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the Stalinist period varying from 8 to 61 million." "Several scholars [...] put the death toll at about 20 million." "no fewer than 15 million deaths" "Wheatcroft excludes all famine deaths as "purposive deaths," and claims those that do qualify fit more closely the category of "execution" rather than "murder."[4] However, some of the actions of Stalin's regime, not only those during the Holodomor but also Dekulakization and targeted campaigns against particular ethnic groups, can be considered as genocide" (About the last quote -- I don't get the difference of execution and murder, when it comes to farmers whose only crime were to have been born.)
      - BugBrother 12y ago
        Addendum to the last paragraph: I think the last researcher thought the ones killed through hunger were more random -- take most food from a population and you don't know exactly which ones will die. With murder, you are more specific. At least, I can't find any other way of reading that. Again -- argue what your schools taught you (or whatever source you have for your claims) with the researchers on the subject, not with me. (Or go the popular way and claim that Wikipedia and/or all the academic research are in a conspiracy... :-) ) Edit: Anyway, as I wrote, the original point is that you can define living in the Eastern Bloc as slavery. The slave owners did whatever they felt like to anyone -- e.g. if individuals or groups complained about the situation or tried to leave. Torture, murder, genocide and throwing complainers into prison or a mental hospital. See Pussy Riot.
        mlvljr 12y ago
        That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time (protesters being fired at, i.e.). On the last phrase: have you seen Pussy Riot yourself? :) (not even asking if you've ever listened to them -- as no one did) Regarding school knowledge -- I'll claim that the sources listed on that page are BS w/o even looking (although going one-by-one could by a truly fruitful exercise in myth-debunking, probably) -- you may compare the then population count to the figures you mentioned to get some initial suspicions.
        BugBrother 12y ago
        >>That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time Oh, please... Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Post a careful comparison. We are back to the original point -- people had to be put in prison (with guards that shot people fleeing!) to keep them in. The borders and information were open in the West. >>have you seen Pussy Riot yourself? I've seen that in civilized countries, we don't throw people in jail for being blasphemous. (And what in H-ll has artistic quality have to do with that?!) >> I'll claim that the sources listed on that page are BS w/o even looking As I guessed: "Or go the popular way and claim that Wikipedia and/or all the academic research are in a conspiracy..." Well, I have better things to do than argue with people claiming Wikipedia is a conspiracy which misrepresent the present state of research -- without knowing the subject enough to recognize the sources!! That is a basic test for non serious debaters, sorry. So bye.

mlvljr 12y ago

That guess would be wrong by a decimal order of magnitude then :)

BugBrother 12y ago
Hardly a factor ten. Holodomor, the great purge, the red terror, forced resettlements, Gulag... Values between 8 and 61 millions, depending on if the starving are part of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_r...
- mlvljr 12y ago
  Now, that (and specifically, 50+ M starved to death by the "regime") is a what I'd call a BS view :) But merely the count of those executed during the "repressions" era / total count of Soviet civilian losses during WWII is less than 0.1 (and USSR was not the only side that has suffered from Hitler).
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    Bring your claims to the academic authors -- I quoted 8-61 million from the wikipedia page, which quoted the researchers. The researchers seem to differ in, amongst other points, how much of the hunger was planned. Quotes from the wikipedia page I referenced, with different researchers: "Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the Stalinist period varying from 8 to 61 million." "Several scholars [...] put the death toll at about 20 million." "no fewer than 15 million deaths" "Wheatcroft excludes all famine deaths as "purposive deaths," and claims those that do qualify fit more closely the category of "execution" rather than "murder."[4] However, some of the actions of Stalin's regime, not only those during the Holodomor but also Dekulakization and targeted campaigns against particular ethnic groups, can be considered as genocide" (About the last quote -- I don't get the difference of execution and murder, when it comes to farmers whose only crime were to have been born.)
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      Addendum to the last paragraph: I think the last researcher thought the ones killed through hunger were more random -- take most food from a population and you don't know exactly which ones will die. With murder, you are more specific. At least, I can't find any other way of reading that. Again -- argue what your schools taught you (or whatever source you have for your claims) with the researchers on the subject, not with me. (Or go the popular way and claim that Wikipedia and/or all the academic research are in a conspiracy... :-) ) Edit: Anyway, as I wrote, the original point is that you can define living in the Eastern Bloc as slavery. The slave owners did whatever they felt like to anyone -- e.g. if individuals or groups complained about the situation or tried to leave. Torture, murder, genocide and throwing complainers into prison or a mental hospital. See Pussy Riot.
      - mlvljr 12y ago
        That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time (protesters being fired at, i.e.). On the last phrase: have you seen Pussy Riot yourself? :) (not even asking if you've ever listened to them -- as no one did) Regarding school knowledge -- I'll claim that the sources listed on that page are BS w/o even looking (although going one-by-one could by a truly fruitful exercise in myth-debunking, probably) -- you may compare the then population count to the figures you mentioned to get some initial suspicions.
        BugBrother 12y ago
        >>That was no more slavery than what was happening in the West in the same time Oh, please... Extraordinary claims need extraordinary support. Post a careful comparison. We are back to the original point -- people had to be put in prison (with guards that shot people fleeing!) to keep them in. The borders and information were open in the West. >>have you seen Pussy Riot yourself? I've seen that in civilized countries, we don't throw people in jail for being blasphemous. (And what in H-ll has artistic quality have to do with that?!) >> I'll claim that the sources listed on that page are BS w/o even looking As I guessed: "Or go the popular way and claim that Wikipedia and/or all the academic research are in a conspiracy..." Well, I have better things to do than argue with people claiming Wikipedia is a conspiracy which misrepresent the present state of research -- without knowing the subject enough to recognize the sources!! That is a basic test for non serious debaters, sorry. So bye.