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> [Western world enslaved countries] Ah, that is why USA had to build a wall to stop people fleeing to the freedom of East Europe? :-) Edit: On the other subj

> [Western world enslaved countries] Ah, that is why USA had to build a wall to stop people fleeing to the freedom of East Europe? :-) Edit: On the other subject -- I can't find much on Wikipedia at all about the construction of the sarcophagus.

mlvljr 12y ago
You would not find any "slaves" to the the east of that wall, still -- but look at the pre-60-ies Africa, for example, that was much closer. Speaking of the sarcophagus, I'd start looking into the memoirs of both those in charge back then, and those in actual action down there (both kinds of sources will likely be not available in translation though).
- BugBrother 12y ago
  I am sorry, but your description of East Europe is complete bullshit. I assume you're Russian? Only Germans seem to learn about their own country's atrocities in school/media. (I'll add Russia to the list of Turkey, Pakistan, Japan, ...) A brutal dictatorship, as Putin seem to work towards, means that the controlling junta can treat the people as their own property. As I wrote: If you have to lock people up to stop them from fleeing -- and the guards even shoot on sight! -- it shows the relationship; leaving is theft of valuable property, i.e. a slavery situation. I have worked in Romania and have read/heard about how the spine of the people were broken and how they were controlled. For example: There were some German speaking people since the Middle Ages in Transylvania. The adults were sent to Siberia. The broken survivors did get home, years later... Another example: Political prisoners (but at least not "criminals" which had just refused to sign over their land to the Party), were just not going to survive prison. And so on. (Pre-60s Africa, during colonialism? Well, that is at least different compared to the usual Soviet argument of blacks in USA. :-) )
  - mlvljr 12y ago
    You're beating the African card, or what? (Then, we could proceed to whether the landlords should own the land in a rural underdeveloped country, whether it really was "the party" it went to, if the Romanian government was responsible for some indeed disgusting things going on there, or their Moscow patrons, whether it is always "from slavery" or rather plain "into better life" people are fleeing across the borders, and to the Transylvanian events) My best commie cheers from the land of Brutal Dictatorship! P.S. If your second line is indeed about Hitler regime being on-par (or "better") than the pre- / or post-war Soviet one (despite declared political goals, documented doings, and victim counts), just say so :)
    - BugBrother 12y ago
      Oh please, realize that almost directly it was clear that Soviet divisions wouldn't again "visit" as an answer to democratization in East Europe, the juntas were gone. And Putin isn't brutal inside the borders, yet. The tendency seems clear. I really wish the best for the Russian people, they if anyone on the planet deserves better after the history. (It is not easy to go democratic for a country with big income from natural resources, see "the oil curse".) (I didn't compare with the German nazis, I noted that citizens are generally not enlightened about atrocities done by their own country, but I'd guess Soviet did have them beaten in absolute numbers. Number of millions, that is.)
      - mlvljr 12y ago
        That guess would be wrong by a decimal order of magnitude then :)
        BugBrother 12y ago
        Hardly a factor ten. Holodomor, the great purge, the red terror, forced resettlements, Gulag... Values between 8 and 61 millions, depending on if the starving are part of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_r...
        mlvljr 12y ago
        Now, that (and specifically, 50+ M starved to death by the "regime") is a what I'd call a BS view :) But merely the count of those executed during the "repressions" era / total count of Soviet civilian losses during WWII is less than 0.1 (and USSR was not the only side that has suffered from Hitler).
        BugBrother 12y ago
        Bring your claims to the academic authors -- I quoted 8-61 million from the wikipedia page, which quoted the researchers. The researchers seem to differ in, amongst other points, how much of the hunger was planned. Quotes from the wikipedia page I referenced, with different researchers: "Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the Stalinist period varying from 8 to 61 million." "Several scholars [...] put the death toll at about 20 million." "no fewer than 15 million deaths" "Wheatcroft excludes all famine deaths as "purposive deaths," and claims those that do qualify fit more closely the category of "execution" rather than "murder."[4] However, some of the actions of Stalin's regime, not only those during the Holodomor but also Dekulakization and targeted campaigns against particular ethnic groups, can be considered as genocide" (About the last quote -- I don't get the difference of execution and murder, when it comes to farmers whose only crime were to have been born.)

mlvljr 12y ago

You would not find any "slaves" to the the east of that wall, still -- but look at the pre-60-ies Africa, for example, that was much closer. Speaking of the sarcophagus, I'd start looking into the memoirs of both those in charge back then, and those in actual action down there (both kinds of sources will likely be not available in translation though).

BugBrother 12y ago
I am sorry, but your description of East Europe is complete bullshit. I assume you're Russian? Only Germans seem to learn about their own country's atrocities in school/media. (I'll add Russia to the list of Turkey, Pakistan, Japan, ...) A brutal dictatorship, as Putin seem to work towards, means that the controlling junta can treat the people as their own property. As I wrote: If you have to lock people up to stop them from fleeing -- and the guards even shoot on sight! -- it shows the relationship; leaving is theft of valuable property, i.e. a slavery situation. I have worked in Romania and have read/heard about how the spine of the people were broken and how they were controlled. For example: There were some German speaking people since the Middle Ages in Transylvania. The adults were sent to Siberia. The broken survivors did get home, years later... Another example: Political prisoners (but at least not "criminals" which had just refused to sign over their land to the Party), were just not going to survive prison. And so on. (Pre-60s Africa, during colonialism? Well, that is at least different compared to the usual Soviet argument of blacks in USA. :-) )
- mlvljr 12y ago
  You're beating the African card, or what? (Then, we could proceed to whether the landlords should own the land in a rural underdeveloped country, whether it really was "the party" it went to, if the Romanian government was responsible for some indeed disgusting things going on there, or their Moscow patrons, whether it is always "from slavery" or rather plain "into better life" people are fleeing across the borders, and to the Transylvanian events) My best commie cheers from the land of Brutal Dictatorship! P.S. If your second line is indeed about Hitler regime being on-par (or "better") than the pre- / or post-war Soviet one (despite declared political goals, documented doings, and victim counts), just say so :)
  - BugBrother 12y ago
    Oh please, realize that almost directly it was clear that Soviet divisions wouldn't again "visit" as an answer to democratization in East Europe, the juntas were gone. And Putin isn't brutal inside the borders, yet. The tendency seems clear. I really wish the best for the Russian people, they if anyone on the planet deserves better after the history. (It is not easy to go democratic for a country with big income from natural resources, see "the oil curse".) (I didn't compare with the German nazis, I noted that citizens are generally not enlightened about atrocities done by their own country, but I'd guess Soviet did have them beaten in absolute numbers. Number of millions, that is.)
    - mlvljr 12y ago
      That guess would be wrong by a decimal order of magnitude then :)
      - BugBrother 12y ago
        Hardly a factor ten. Holodomor, the great purge, the red terror, forced resettlements, Gulag... Values between 8 and 61 millions, depending on if the starving are part of that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_r...
        mlvljr 12y ago
        Now, that (and specifically, 50+ M starved to death by the "regime") is a what I'd call a BS view :) But merely the count of those executed during the "repressions" era / total count of Soviet civilian losses during WWII is less than 0.1 (and USSR was not the only side that has suffered from Hitler).
        BugBrother 12y ago
        Bring your claims to the academic authors -- I quoted 8-61 million from the wikipedia page, which quoted the researchers. The researchers seem to differ in, amongst other points, how much of the hunger was planned. Quotes from the wikipedia page I referenced, with different researchers: "Some historians attempt to make separate estimates for different periods of the Soviet history, with casualties for the Stalinist period varying from 8 to 61 million." "Several scholars [...] put the death toll at about 20 million." "no fewer than 15 million deaths" "Wheatcroft excludes all famine deaths as "purposive deaths," and claims those that do qualify fit more closely the category of "execution" rather than "murder."[4] However, some of the actions of Stalin's regime, not only those during the Holodomor but also Dekulakization and targeted campaigns against particular ethnic groups, can be considered as genocide" (About the last quote -- I don't get the difference of execution and murder, when it comes to farmers whose only crime were to have been born.)