5 ms·

The Kennewick Man Finally Freed to Share His Secrets

67 points by bdevine 12y ago

angersock 12y ago
...Jimmy Hoffa?
bdevine 12y ago
Summary: About 15,000 years ago, sea-faring people made their way from what is now Japan along the North Pacific rim to what is now the First Nations region. It was only later that the Bering land bridge migration occurred, those peoples integrating with the first settlers. This article offers a fascinating look into the intersection of cutting-edge archeology and tribal/governmental politics. If anybody has any insight into the Corps of Engineer's behavior that was discussed in the article, I'd love to hear it.
- rayiner 12y ago
  In theory, the Indian nations retain a residual sovereignty within the U.S. as a result of massive abuse, various legislation has been passed to protect their burial grounds, artifacts, hunting, fishing, and water rights. As resources dry up in the Western U.S., there is increasing pressure to renegotiate resource rights. The Indians view our archeological expeditions as basically desecration of their history and religion. They take a pretty hard line stance against such activities. The Department of Interior is involved in its oversight authority over the Indian nations, and the Army Corps of engineers is involved by virtue of its construction of the damns and irrigation systems that make life out west possible (but also make possible the American settlements that put pressure on Indian resources). Those departments have enough to deal with without siding with some archeologists against the Indian tribes.
- cjensen 12y ago
  The Corps of Engineers was attempting to obey US Law which presumes that any pre-Columbian remains belong to the local tribes who have complete say over what happens to the remains. The local tribes claim the skeleton is their ancestor, and want it buried instead of defiled. I'm ambivalent. This is very important science, but it comes at a cost of stomping on Native American rights.
  - rmtew 12y ago
    Did you read the article? The only reason this information took so long to become available, was because scientists had to fight to prove that the provenance of the bones was not Native American. And the article states that the bones are more closely related to the moriori, as it turns out after the study happened more than 10 years later. So no stomping.. This is something that was required to be proved before the bones became Native American property to dispose of by law. The Corp's actions as described by this article, look unethical and against the interests of the American people (and for that matter mine, as a non-American). There is no reason to believe that there is any stomping on any rights, except the rights of people not to have to make hollow gestures, in order to appease an aggrieved people. At least, that is how the article portrays it.
    - cjensen 12y ago
      The legal info in the article was not news to me. The litigation is pretty old news; the ethical implications are well-trodden ground. "Ambivalent" means I see both sides; it does not mean I completely agree with Native American side.
      - biot 12y ago
        It's not your use of the word "ambivalent"; it's your phrase: > but it comes at a cost of stomping on Native American rights If the Kennewick man is not an ancestor of the Native American people, then the Native American people have as much claim to the Kennewick man remains as they would to an ancient Viking's remains. From that perspective, how are their rights being stomped on?
        cjensen 12y ago
        I consider it "stomping" because the law says the remains belong to the tribes. I'm not fond of that law, but it is clear about who pre-Columbian remains belongs to. I'm very surprised the scientists got any access.
    - rayiner 12y ago
- jandrewrogers 12y ago
  The politics are complicated; I have several friends who are working archaeologists in the western US and it is a frequent topic of conversation. Since Kennewick Man, there have been a few other extremely old archaeological sites discovered in the same region of North America that support the hypothesis that a different people occupied these parts of North America at one time. The politics are approximately as follows: The tribes are given enormous legal latitude and power on the basis that they are residing on their ancestral lands since the beginning of time. This is a working legal assumption absent evidence to the contrary. The Corps of Engineers, Department of Interior, et al need to operate with the consent of the tribes for many parts of their job. The tribes sometimes use this relationship as leverage to gain a variety of concessions out of the government. The Corps of Engineers needs a good working relationship with the tribes as a practical matter or it makes their job very difficult. Herein lies the conflict: any scientific evidence that the tribes are not in their ancestral lands undermines their political leverage and so they actively attempt to suppress scientific inquiries that may undermine them. The Corps of Engineers and other government organizations that need the permission of tribes to operate are strongly encouraged by the tribes to maintain the status quo or the tribes will make life difficult for them. It is a clear conflict of interest. In summary, the tribes have a political and financial incentive to suppress any evidence that they were not the first occupants of their land, and they have the leverage in some parts of government to use the government as their agents to enforce that perspective. Consequently, and unfortunately, a lot of archaeological evidence is quietly destroyed or unreported in that part of the country to avoid being held hostage by the tribes.
  - bdevine 12y ago
    Well-said; thank you for the reply. Based on what you've said and what the article says and implies, I am inclined to be biased against the tribes in this matter. While there is obviously a long and tragic history that is still in play, it seems to me that if there is an agreement that is in place that allows the federal government (NOT necessarily within the Corps) primacy in determining whether remains belong to some tribe(s), then such tribes have no immediate grounds to claim the remains. I agree that the Corps comes off looking very much like they intended to use the remains as a bargaining chip.
- codezero 12y ago
  Also possible that whatever displaced the Kennewick man also displaced people who ended up in Japan :)
- droithomme 12y ago
  > It was only later that the Bering land bridge migration occurred This is interesting. Kennewick man's bones were radiocarbon dated to 8900 years before present, or around 6900 BCE. I have never heard before that the "Bering land bridge migration" occurred after 6900BCE. That is much more recent than most estimates.
  - bdevine 12y ago
    Right, given that as yet no DNA from Kennewick Man is available, I believe it's implied that he may have been the product of intermingling between the theoretical first settlers and the later Bering settlers. No revision of land bridge migration dates would be needed.
a8da6b0c91d 12y ago
If you're feeling silly and want to waste a couple hours, read about the nephilim giant skeletons of north america. It's some top notch crazy X-Files entertainment. There are thousands of accounts and plenty of photographs of ancient unearthed 9ft tall skeletons in north america. Allegedly the smithsonian has a bunch of them but won't let people look at them. http://monessasmontage.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/jim-vieira-presentation-on-ancient-stone-structures-in-new-england/ http://monessasmontage.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/jim-vieira-p... http://tnephilim.blogspot.com/2012/01/giant-human-nephilim-in-north-american.html http://tnephilim.blogspot.com/2012/01/giant-human-nephilim-i...
dangayle 12y ago
Once the courts had ruled, why didn't/doesn't the Corps cooperate with the scientists, e.g., letting them study the actual spear tip? At that point, they have nothing to lose. In fact, if they simply handed the bones off to the Smithsonian or whoever, they could've washed their hands of the whole thing. The fact that they didn't do so indicates to me that they wanted to hold onto the bones as a bargaining chip with the native tribes.

67 points by bdevine 12y ago

...Jimmy Hoffa?

Summary: About 15,000 years ago, sea-faring people made their way from what is now Japan along the North Pacific rim to what is now the First Nations region. It was only later that the Bering land bridge migration occurred, those peoples integrating with the first settlers. This article offers a fascinating look into the intersection of cutting-edge archeology and tribal/governmental politics. If anybody has any insight into the Corps of Engineer's behavior that was discussed in the article, I'd love to hear it.

rayiner 12y ago
In theory, the Indian nations retain a residual sovereignty within the U.S. as a result of massive abuse, various legislation has been passed to protect their burial grounds, artifacts, hunting, fishing, and water rights. As resources dry up in the Western U.S., there is increasing pressure to renegotiate resource rights. The Indians view our archeological expeditions as basically desecration of their history and religion. They take a pretty hard line stance against such activities. The Department of Interior is involved in its oversight authority over the Indian nations, and the Army Corps of engineers is involved by virtue of its construction of the damns and irrigation systems that make life out west possible (but also make possible the American settlements that put pressure on Indian resources). Those departments have enough to deal with without siding with some archeologists against the Indian tribes.
cjensen 12y ago
The Corps of Engineers was attempting to obey US Law which presumes that any pre-Columbian remains belong to the local tribes who have complete say over what happens to the remains. The local tribes claim the skeleton is their ancestor, and want it buried instead of defiled. I'm ambivalent. This is very important science, but it comes at a cost of stomping on Native American rights.
- rmtew 12y ago
  Did you read the article? The only reason this information took so long to become available, was because scientists had to fight to prove that the provenance of the bones was not Native American. And the article states that the bones are more closely related to the moriori, as it turns out after the study happened more than 10 years later. So no stomping.. This is something that was required to be proved before the bones became Native American property to dispose of by law. The Corp's actions as described by this article, look unethical and against the interests of the American people (and for that matter mine, as a non-American). There is no reason to believe that there is any stomping on any rights, except the rights of people not to have to make hollow gestures, in order to appease an aggrieved people. At least, that is how the article portrays it.
  - cjensen 12y ago
    The legal info in the article was not news to me. The litigation is pretty old news; the ethical implications are well-trodden ground. "Ambivalent" means I see both sides; it does not mean I completely agree with Native American side.
    - biot 12y ago
      It's not your use of the word "ambivalent"; it's your phrase: > but it comes at a cost of stomping on Native American rights If the Kennewick man is not an ancestor of the Native American people, then the Native American people have as much claim to the Kennewick man remains as they would to an ancient Viking's remains. From that perspective, how are their rights being stomped on?
      - cjensen 12y ago
        I consider it "stomping" because the law says the remains belong to the tribes. I'm not fond of that law, but it is clear about who pre-Columbian remains belongs to. I'm very surprised the scientists got any access.
  - rayiner 12y ago
jandrewrogers 12y ago
The politics are complicated; I have several friends who are working archaeologists in the western US and it is a frequent topic of conversation. Since Kennewick Man, there have been a few other extremely old archaeological sites discovered in the same region of North America that support the hypothesis that a different people occupied these parts of North America at one time. The politics are approximately as follows: The tribes are given enormous legal latitude and power on the basis that they are residing on their ancestral lands since the beginning of time. This is a working legal assumption absent evidence to the contrary. The Corps of Engineers, Department of Interior, et al need to operate with the consent of the tribes for many parts of their job. The tribes sometimes use this relationship as leverage to gain a variety of concessions out of the government. The Corps of Engineers needs a good working relationship with the tribes as a practical matter or it makes their job very difficult. Herein lies the conflict: any scientific evidence that the tribes are not in their ancestral lands undermines their political leverage and so they actively attempt to suppress scientific inquiries that may undermine them. The Corps of Engineers and other government organizations that need the permission of tribes to operate are strongly encouraged by the tribes to maintain the status quo or the tribes will make life difficult for them. It is a clear conflict of interest. In summary, the tribes have a political and financial incentive to suppress any evidence that they were not the first occupants of their land, and they have the leverage in some parts of government to use the government as their agents to enforce that perspective. Consequently, and unfortunately, a lot of archaeological evidence is quietly destroyed or unreported in that part of the country to avoid being held hostage by the tribes.
- bdevine 12y ago
  Well-said; thank you for the reply. Based on what you've said and what the article says and implies, I am inclined to be biased against the tribes in this matter. While there is obviously a long and tragic history that is still in play, it seems to me that if there is an agreement that is in place that allows the federal government (NOT necessarily within the Corps) primacy in determining whether remains belong to some tribe(s), then such tribes have no immediate grounds to claim the remains. I agree that the Corps comes off looking very much like they intended to use the remains as a bargaining chip.
codezero 12y ago
Also possible that whatever displaced the Kennewick man also displaced people who ended up in Japan :)
droithomme 12y ago
> It was only later that the Bering land bridge migration occurred This is interesting. Kennewick man's bones were radiocarbon dated to 8900 years before present, or around 6900 BCE. I have never heard before that the "Bering land bridge migration" occurred after 6900BCE. That is much more recent than most estimates.
- bdevine 12y ago
  Right, given that as yet no DNA from Kennewick Man is available, I believe it's implied that he may have been the product of intermingling between the theoretical first settlers and the later Bering settlers. No revision of land bridge migration dates would be needed.

a8da6b0c91d 12y ago

If you're feeling silly and want to waste a couple hours, read about the nephilim giant skeletons of north america. It's some top notch crazy X-Files entertainment. There are thousands of accounts and plenty of photographs of ancient unearthed 9ft tall skeletons in north america. Allegedly the smithsonian has a bunch of them but won't let people look at them. http://monessasmontage.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/jim-vieira-presentation-on-ancient-stone-structures-in-new-england/ http://monessasmontage.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/jim-vieira-p... http://tnephilim.blogspot.com/2012/01/giant-human-nephilim-in-north-american.html http://tnephilim.blogspot.com/2012/01/giant-human-nephilim-i...

dangayle 12y ago

Once the courts had ruled, why didn't/doesn't the Corps cooperate with the scientists, e.g., letting them study the actual spear tip? At that point, they have nothing to lose. In fact, if they simply handed the bones off to the Smithsonian or whoever, they could've washed their hands of the whole thing. The fact that they didn't do so indicates to me that they wanted to hold onto the bones as a bargaining chip with the native tribes.