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This is some truly frightening stuff. There are large groups of people who relish the idea of a surveillance state in order to eliminate uncertainty in all thi

This is some truly frightening stuff. There are large groups of people who relish the idea of a surveillance state in order to eliminate uncertainty in all things. And if privacy has to be sacrificed then so be it. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather be dead than live in a fishbowl.

ghshephard 12y ago
How much time have you spent in Singapore? I've been here on and off for most of the last year. It's a beautiful country. You get a close-to-zero crime rate, almost zero violent crimes, impeccably clean transit system (and country in general). Incredibly civilized people, even in the lower socio-economic environs. And they've taken religious and social harmony to a whole new level. It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs.
- dbcooper 12y ago
  It's beautiful if you're a fan of a city-wide shopping mall aesthetic...
  - venus 12y ago
    Ah, that's not totally fair. There's places to go that aren't shopping malls - I miss the hawker centres and food streets, and there's some great walking to be had. That said, the single best thing about Singapore is that it's a gateway to the rest of SEA. Changi is the best airport in the world, IMO, and you can be in Thailand or Vietnam in an hour for $100. No malls there! (Well not by CapitaMalls, anyway)
    - ghshephard 12y ago
      Changi Airport, both on arrival, and departure, is amazing. If you have a work permit, then the arrival process is 15 seconds to clear immigration - I kid you not. You swipe your passport, and entry gate pops open (quickly), you walk ahead five steps, punch down your thumb, and then a message appears, "Welcome to Singapore, ghshephard" - and then the second gate opens. I thought YVR (Vancouver) was fast - (You submit your entry form, answer a couple questions on a kiosk, and then present it to an immigration person who makes sure you match the passport - about 2-3 minutes) - but Changi beats it hands down. Departure is just as good - no long lines at security or worry about missing your flight - everything is done at the departure gate (which also makes a helluva lot more sense from a security perspective as well). Makes SFO feel like a miserable cast-off of an Airport after spending time in Changi.
      - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
        Schiphol is run the same way and is arguably more plush than changi, though both have nice outdoor areas behind security. Honestly, my layovers in changi seem like a drag, you run out of things to do waiting for that Mumbai or Bangalore connection.
      - ulfw 12y ago
        I'd say every country I've been to has been incredibly efficient when it comes to immigration procedures. Except for the USA and UAE, both of which I wasted 3+ hours queuing.
    - hrasyid 12y ago
      >>> Ah, that's not totally fair. There's places to go that aren't shopping malls - I miss the hawker centres and food streets, and there's some great walking to be had. Those usually get old after a few months/years..
    - contingencies 12y ago
      it's a gateway to the rest of SEA That title, albeit very amorphous, is definitely Bangkok's by any honest number (eg. flights) or remotely holistic cultural assessment.
  - frenchieinsg 12y ago
    Often said by tourists. Singapore is a lot less online that similarly developed Western nations (in part because professional PR staff game all the ratings and reviews), so it's harder to source the nice places. But it has a thriving "hipster" (for lack of a better word) scene and if you're willing to dig a bit, you can have as much fun as in London or Sydney, without ever stepping into a mall. My advice would be to ask local friends for recommendations. I also think that MacRitchie Reservoir Park is a lot more fun to walk around (with its giant lizards, multicolored parrots, flying squirrels, hordes of monkeys and general lack of crowds) than Hyde Park or Central Park.
- crdoconnor 12y ago
  >It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs. Or look "kind of Bangladeshi". Or challenge any kind of social order. Or get involved in domestic politics at all (as a foreigner). Fwiw, I've been here longer than you. I enjoy the low crime rate, weather, transit system (excluding the erratic bus arrival times) and the privileges a white face affords me too. I'm careful of what I say online though, because I know that they are listening closely and are likely to respond accordingly (probably listening even closer than the US monitors its citizens). >And they've taken religious and social harmony to a whole new level. A whole new level where the possibility of a race riot in Little India is non-existent? Or a while new level where race riots in Little India happen, but they manage to put a nice enough spin on it to satisfy you?
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    The riot in Little India was almost unique in this country's history (which says a lot), and, it's important to note, happened after someone was run over by a bus, was predominantly not involving singaporeans (mostly foreign workers), and involved a lot of alcohol. They've had (multiple) Riots in Vancouver (though, usually involving Hockey, but also alcohol). I don't find that an indictment on Vancouver. But, yes, I do agree, it's pretty clear that you don't want to discuss politics, and certainly don't want to get involved in them if you are a foreigner.
    - crdoconnor 12y ago
      >The riot in Little India was almost unique in this country's history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_race_riots_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_race_riots_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_race_riots_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_race_riots_of_Singapore You do realize that one of the core reasons the country EXISTS as a separate entity (kicked out of Malaysia) was because of race riots, don't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_singapore#Racial_tension https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_singapore#Racial_te... I don't even know of any other countries where race riots have played a greater role in the country's history. Unique indeed. >it's important to note, happened after someone was run over by a bus, was predominantly not involving singaporeans (mostly foreign workers), and involved a lot of alcohol. It's important to note that the itinerant foreign workers are treated like shit and the reason they rioted was because the ambulance took forever and the guy who was ran over was dead by the time it came. Alcohol was simply the fuel for the anger created by that. But yea, racial harmony and all that.
- einrealist 12y ago
  Or as long as the government is not evil.
- l33tbro 12y ago
  Or chew bubblegum (illegal here, fyi)
  - lazylizard 12y ago
    that is wrong. not actually illegal, since 2004. only that u need a prescription i think.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore
- DanBC 12y ago
  > It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs Or chew gum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore
- kazagistar 12y ago
  Close-to-zero crime rates happen in most places in most developed countries. Depending on the news, the few that do happen can be spun either way. On the other hand, this enforced harmony stuff sounds terrifying as hell, and a government without oversight is a disaster waiting to happen.
sqrt17 12y ago
The point here is that Singaporean authorities, while enacting a huge amount of surveillance, still feel accountable to their constituents and try to make the best use of the data they get. The attitude that you're accountable for the data you collected and that you actually have to do something useful with it (as in, disease prevention, prediction of future economic trends) seems alien to the US where limiting yourself to fighting terrorists (but leaving diseases, angry US nationals with guns, or stupid people with SUVs on the side) is seen as something perfectly rational to do. And a central idea of the surveillance state (as we know it through Orwell and others) is that the state (surveillance or otherwise) is not accountable to its constituents, which is a much older idea but should frighten you just as much as living in a fishbowl.

ghshephard 12y ago

How much time have you spent in Singapore? I've been here on and off for most of the last year. It's a beautiful country. You get a close-to-zero crime rate, almost zero violent crimes, impeccably clean transit system (and country in general). Incredibly civilized people, even in the lower socio-economic environs. And they've taken religious and social harmony to a whole new level. It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs.

dbcooper 12y ago
It's beautiful if you're a fan of a city-wide shopping mall aesthetic...
- venus 12y ago
  Ah, that's not totally fair. There's places to go that aren't shopping malls - I miss the hawker centres and food streets, and there's some great walking to be had. That said, the single best thing about Singapore is that it's a gateway to the rest of SEA. Changi is the best airport in the world, IMO, and you can be in Thailand or Vietnam in an hour for $100. No malls there! (Well not by CapitaMalls, anyway)
  - ghshephard 12y ago
    Changi Airport, both on arrival, and departure, is amazing. If you have a work permit, then the arrival process is 15 seconds to clear immigration - I kid you not. You swipe your passport, and entry gate pops open (quickly), you walk ahead five steps, punch down your thumb, and then a message appears, "Welcome to Singapore, ghshephard" - and then the second gate opens. I thought YVR (Vancouver) was fast - (You submit your entry form, answer a couple questions on a kiosk, and then present it to an immigration person who makes sure you match the passport - about 2-3 minutes) - but Changi beats it hands down. Departure is just as good - no long lines at security or worry about missing your flight - everything is done at the departure gate (which also makes a helluva lot more sense from a security perspective as well). Makes SFO feel like a miserable cast-off of an Airport after spending time in Changi.
    - seanmcdirmid 12y ago
      Schiphol is run the same way and is arguably more plush than changi, though both have nice outdoor areas behind security. Honestly, my layovers in changi seem like a drag, you run out of things to do waiting for that Mumbai or Bangalore connection.
    - ulfw 12y ago
      I'd say every country I've been to has been incredibly efficient when it comes to immigration procedures. Except for the USA and UAE, both of which I wasted 3+ hours queuing.
  - hrasyid 12y ago
    >>> Ah, that's not totally fair. There's places to go that aren't shopping malls - I miss the hawker centres and food streets, and there's some great walking to be had. Those usually get old after a few months/years..
  - contingencies 12y ago
    it's a gateway to the rest of SEA That title, albeit very amorphous, is definitely Bangkok's by any honest number (eg. flights) or remotely holistic cultural assessment.
- frenchieinsg 12y ago
  Often said by tourists. Singapore is a lot less online that similarly developed Western nations (in part because professional PR staff game all the ratings and reviews), so it's harder to source the nice places. But it has a thriving "hipster" (for lack of a better word) scene and if you're willing to dig a bit, you can have as much fun as in London or Sydney, without ever stepping into a mall. My advice would be to ask local friends for recommendations. I also think that MacRitchie Reservoir Park is a lot more fun to walk around (with its giant lizards, multicolored parrots, flying squirrels, hordes of monkeys and general lack of crowds) than Hyde Park or Central Park.
crdoconnor 12y ago
>It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs. Or look "kind of Bangladeshi". Or challenge any kind of social order. Or get involved in domestic politics at all (as a foreigner). Fwiw, I've been here longer than you. I enjoy the low crime rate, weather, transit system (excluding the erratic bus arrival times) and the privileges a white face affords me too. I'm careful of what I say online though, because I know that they are listening closely and are likely to respond accordingly (probably listening even closer than the US monitors its citizens). >And they've taken religious and social harmony to a whole new level. A whole new level where the possibility of a race riot in Little India is non-existent? Or a while new level where race riots in Little India happen, but they manage to put a nice enough spin on it to satisfy you?
- ghshephard 12y ago
  The riot in Little India was almost unique in this country's history (which says a lot), and, it's important to note, happened after someone was run over by a bus, was predominantly not involving singaporeans (mostly foreign workers), and involved a lot of alcohol. They've had (multiple) Riots in Vancouver (though, usually involving Hockey, but also alcohol). I don't find that an indictment on Vancouver. But, yes, I do agree, it's pretty clear that you don't want to discuss politics, and certainly don't want to get involved in them if you are a foreigner.
  - crdoconnor 12y ago
    >The riot in Little India was almost unique in this country's history https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_race_riots_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_race_riots_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_race_riots_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1969_race_riots_of_Singapore You do realize that one of the core reasons the country EXISTS as a separate entity (kicked out of Malaysia) was because of race riots, don't you? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_singapore#Racial_tension https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_singapore#Racial_te... I don't even know of any other countries where race riots have played a greater role in the country's history. Unique indeed. >it's important to note, happened after someone was run over by a bus, was predominantly not involving singaporeans (mostly foreign workers), and involved a lot of alcohol. It's important to note that the itinerant foreign workers are treated like shit and the reason they rioted was because the ambulance took forever and the guy who was ran over was dead by the time it came. Alcohol was simply the fuel for the anger created by that. But yea, racial harmony and all that.
einrealist 12y ago
Or as long as the government is not evil.
l33tbro 12y ago
Or chew bubblegum (illegal here, fyi)
- lazylizard 12y ago
  that is wrong. not actually illegal, since 2004. only that u need a prescription i think.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore
DanBC 12y ago
> It's a pretty nice fishbowl life as long as you don't want to carry a gun, or do drugs Or chew gum? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewing_gum_ban_in_Singapore
kazagistar 12y ago
Close-to-zero crime rates happen in most places in most developed countries. Depending on the news, the few that do happen can be spun either way. On the other hand, this enforced harmony stuff sounds terrifying as hell, and a government without oversight is a disaster waiting to happen.

sqrt17 12y ago

The point here is that Singaporean authorities, while enacting a huge amount of surveillance, still feel accountable to their constituents and try to make the best use of the data they get. The attitude that you're accountable for the data you collected and that you actually have to do something useful with it (as in, disease prevention, prediction of future economic trends) seems alien to the US where limiting yourself to fighting terrorists (but leaving diseases, angry US nationals with guns, or stupid people with SUVs on the side) is seen as something perfectly rational to do. And a central idea of the surveillance state (as we know it through Orwell and others) is that the state (surveillance or otherwise) is not accountable to its constituents, which is a much older idea but should frighten you just as much as living in a fishbowl.