5 ms·

People who are not white males... I know it's hard to believe, but relative to their proportion in the workforce white males are slightly underrepresented in t

People who are not white males... I know it's hard to believe, but relative to their proportion in the workforce white males are slightly underrepresented in tech. Additionally, people of color are dramatically overrepresented. It's easy to march under the banner of "men in tech shouldn't act like sexist jerks"—what kind of sexist jerk could object to that?—but the more accurate slogan "we need many fewer Asian males in tech" doesn't sound quite so nice. In fact, it sounds rather nasty. And yet, it's the inevitable implication of increasing diversity.

deleted 12y ago
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tomasien 12y ago
Are they under-represented in terms of being founders/CEOs/Execs? I don't think I've ever seen that argued.
jiggy2011 12y ago
Do you have any figures on tech as a whole? The thing that I'm never sure about in these discussions (on any on HN really) is whether people are talking about "tech" to include people working 9-5 in IT at a bank somewhere or whether it really means "venture capital backed startups operating out of California".
- crassus 12y ago
  I'm hell banned, but if you can see me then this post is useful: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dominate-silicon-valley-tech-jobs http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dom...
- crassus2 12y ago
  The San Jose Mercury News estimated that Silicon Valley tech jobs are mostly held by Asians. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dominate-silicon-valley-tech-jobs http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dom... Based on my experience, I'd believe it, though the proportion is likely less in San Francisco and more in the South Bay.
dominotw 12y ago
I know Indians are overrepresented to their relative proportion in general population ( ~1%)
- arjie 12y ago
  That's because we're the master race. I'm kidding. It's because we're immigrants from a populous country that overwhelmingly work in a few occupations in America.
thomasfromcdnjs 12y ago
Just hi-hacking this comment to talk about the same line. Everybody needs to stop with this "white-male" nonsense, which is inherently racist. There is much cultural diversity among what is considered "white" and that is painfully obvious. The "black" American guy and "white" American gal might have more in common with each other than the "white" Italian working in the cubicle next door. This also applies to the vast spectrum of "Asians" whose cultures differ significantly. And just a personal opinion on something else Sam said "Realizing that it’s hard to speak with much authority here as a white guy" Completely unnecessary and I think it would be healthier if people stop this self persecution. (Using the same logic, maybe I can say this with authority because I am an indigenous Australian =D)
- a-t-shirt 12y ago
  At least one moderator here (with the username "dang") has blocked discussion of the fact that white men are actually underrepresented in tech. For example, take a look at this thread from about three months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7662013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7662013 He labeled the submission itself a "troll" (and locked it) because it generated what he called "high-indignation, low-information" responses. Read the responses and decide for yourself. It's pretty clear that "high-indignation, low-information" just means "doesn't support my ideology". > it would be healthier if people stop this self persecution If only it were self-persecution. It's actually persecuting other (infinitely less powerful) white men and boys by implying "You—as a member of the group who will be most negatively affected by the policies we are discussing—are not allowed to object."
  - dang 12y ago
    > and locked it That's false. We didn't lock anything. We simply made the post not be on the front page. Edit: I posted a longer reply, but decided it was a bad idea.
    - xiaoma 12y ago
      I have to say that I've lost some respect for HN today. While there are many times I've missed the quality of the community from the early days of 2007, it's only been recently where I've wondered if the front page might be as censored as Digg was around the time I first discovered HN.
yypark 12y ago
I think the disconnect comes from having a minority group strongly over-represented, and the disagreement over what causes representation differences. It's the inconvenient factor that doesn't get discussed a lot. Benefactors see diversity initiatives purely as eliminating discrimination on the part of privileged groups, whereas detractors see it as unfairly lobbing claims of wrongdoing on white men, calling for soft quotas - which in this case, imply fewer Asian males in tech. I wrote more about this here - about over-represented minorities, and self selection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8088263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8088263 Fundamentally, people disagree to WHY certain groups are over-represented - is it mostly discrimination, mostly cultural, mostly self-selection? Discrimination is bad, but how bad - or not - are cultural factors and self-selection? Asians are strongly over-represented - but no one says this is because admissions officers prefer them - there is strong evidence to the contrary - and most agree it is a combination of selective immigration policy and cultural factors on the part of frequently college-educated, first-generation parents. However efforts to take race into account in college admissions no doubt will tend to work against members of this still minority group (in fact - only 5% in the US). Finally, the attacking white males is basically a motte-and-bailey tactic [1] in which something very obviously wrong, and not defended by a majority of any group e.g. racial discrimination, is then used, strawman-like, to strike down countervailing discussion as "derailing" (no one is saying racism is good). Do white men need to make counter-adjustments in order to correct for previous sins (or sins by others in the same group - see sexual harassment by another unrelated man in the same industry)? Is that fair to those white men to take steps - perhaps even extending privileges to other groups at their own cost, or is it fair because the discriminated-against groups have experienced injustice? This is the fundamental disagreement in the social justice debate. What makes sense on an individual level can look wrong on a collective level, and vice versa. It just depends on your sense of fairness. The voices on the collective side of this debate are the strongest in Silicon Valley, but a greater amounts of people - and Americans overall - frequently disagree on what needs to be done to address racial disparities e.g. affirmative action or no affirmative action. [1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words-words/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-word...
ignostic 12y ago
.... source?
deleted 12y ago
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deleted 12y ago

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tomasien 12y ago

Are they under-represented in terms of being founders/CEOs/Execs? I don't think I've ever seen that argued.

jiggy2011 12y ago

Do you have any figures on tech as a whole? The thing that I'm never sure about in these discussions (on any on HN really) is whether people are talking about "tech" to include people working 9-5 in IT at a bank somewhere or whether it really means "venture capital backed startups operating out of California".

crassus 12y ago
I'm hell banned, but if you can see me then this post is useful: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dominate-silicon-valley-tech-jobs http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dom...
crassus2 12y ago
The San Jose Mercury News estimated that Silicon Valley tech jobs are mostly held by Asians. http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dominate-silicon-valley-tech-jobs http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_22094415/asian-workers-now-dom... Based on my experience, I'd believe it, though the proportion is likely less in San Francisco and more in the South Bay.

dominotw 12y ago

I know Indians are overrepresented to their relative proportion in general population ( ~1%)

arjie 12y ago
That's because we're the master race. I'm kidding. It's because we're immigrants from a populous country that overwhelmingly work in a few occupations in America.

thomasfromcdnjs 12y ago

Just hi-hacking this comment to talk about the same line. Everybody needs to stop with this "white-male" nonsense, which is inherently racist. There is much cultural diversity among what is considered "white" and that is painfully obvious. The "black" American guy and "white" American gal might have more in common with each other than the "white" Italian working in the cubicle next door. This also applies to the vast spectrum of "Asians" whose cultures differ significantly. And just a personal opinion on something else Sam said "Realizing that it’s hard to speak with much authority here as a white guy" Completely unnecessary and I think it would be healthier if people stop this self persecution. (Using the same logic, maybe I can say this with authority because I am an indigenous Australian =D)

a-t-shirt 12y ago
At least one moderator here (with the username "dang") has blocked discussion of the fact that white men are actually underrepresented in tech. For example, take a look at this thread from about three months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7662013 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7662013 He labeled the submission itself a "troll" (and locked it) because it generated what he called "high-indignation, low-information" responses. Read the responses and decide for yourself. It's pretty clear that "high-indignation, low-information" just means "doesn't support my ideology". > it would be healthier if people stop this self persecution If only it were self-persecution. It's actually persecuting other (infinitely less powerful) white men and boys by implying "You—as a member of the group who will be most negatively affected by the policies we are discussing—are not allowed to object."
- dang 12y ago
  > and locked it That's false. We didn't lock anything. We simply made the post not be on the front page. Edit: I posted a longer reply, but decided it was a bad idea.
  - xiaoma 12y ago
    I have to say that I've lost some respect for HN today. While there are many times I've missed the quality of the community from the early days of 2007, it's only been recently where I've wondered if the front page might be as censored as Digg was around the time I first discovered HN.

yypark 12y ago

I think the disconnect comes from having a minority group strongly over-represented, and the disagreement over what causes representation differences. It's the inconvenient factor that doesn't get discussed a lot. Benefactors see diversity initiatives purely as eliminating discrimination on the part of privileged groups, whereas detractors see it as unfairly lobbing claims of wrongdoing on white men, calling for soft quotas - which in this case, imply fewer Asian males in tech. I wrote more about this here - about over-represented minorities, and self selection: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8088263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8088263 Fundamentally, people disagree to WHY certain groups are over-represented - is it mostly discrimination, mostly cultural, mostly self-selection? Discrimination is bad, but how bad - or not - are cultural factors and self-selection? Asians are strongly over-represented - but no one says this is because admissions officers prefer them - there is strong evidence to the contrary - and most agree it is a combination of selective immigration policy and cultural factors on the part of frequently college-educated, first-generation parents. However efforts to take race into account in college admissions no doubt will tend to work against members of this still minority group (in fact - only 5% in the US). Finally, the attacking white males is basically a motte-and-bailey tactic [1] in which something very obviously wrong, and not defended by a majority of any group e.g. racial discrimination, is then used, strawman-like, to strike down countervailing discussion as "derailing" (no one is saying racism is good). Do white men need to make counter-adjustments in order to correct for previous sins (or sins by others in the same group - see sexual harassment by another unrelated man in the same industry)? Is that fair to those white men to take steps - perhaps even extending privileges to other groups at their own cost, or is it fair because the discriminated-against groups have experienced injustice? This is the fundamental disagreement in the social justice debate. What makes sense on an individual level can look wrong on a collective level, and vice versa. It just depends on your sense of fairness. The voices on the collective side of this debate are the strongest in Silicon Valley, but a greater amounts of people - and Americans overall - frequently disagree on what needs to be done to address racial disparities e.g. affirmative action or no affirmative action. [1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words-words/ http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-word...

ignostic 12y ago

.... source?

deleted 12y ago

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