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We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind
by Create 12y ago
We begin therefore where they are determined not to end, with the question whether any form of democratic self-government, anywhere, is consistent with the kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.
This should not actually be a complicated inquiry.
http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html http://snowdenandthefuture.info/events.html
Surveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999 http://www.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/europe-24385999
- dreamweapon 12y agoSurveillance is not an end toward totalitarianism, it is totalitarianism itself. That's quite an oversimplification.
- cryoshon 12y agoSurveillance provides knowledge. Knowledge is power. Also oversimplified, but I'm pretty sure that's the line of reasoning. I'm not convinced that it's wrong.
- krapp 12y agoBut if you work from the premise that if totalitarianism is evil, and an inevitable function of power, which itself is an inevitable function of knowledge, then you've proven that knowledge is fundamentally evil, haven't you? There may be some dimension of truth here but i'm not entirely sure the premise does more good than harm.
- nitrogen 12y agoYou're missing an important qualifier: "concentrated"
- Create 12y agoThe second meeting took place in October 1988 at a summer resort in Western Virginia, sad and grey this particular autumn. The Americans turned up in force. Bill Bostwick, from the Department of Energy was the Chairman, Barry Leiner from the Department of Defense and Vint Cerf were present. The European representatives were thin on the ground: a German and British representative plus François Flückiger. In 1991, 80% of the internet capacity in Europe for international traffic was installed at CERN, in building 513. “You can't solve social problems with software.” – Marcus Ranum
- dreamweapon 12y agoAnd your point is?
- Create 12y agothe kind of massive, pervasive, surveillance into which the Unites States government has led not only us but the world.
- sfk 12y agoMany European states (e.g. the Netherlands) have been surveillance states for a long time. People seem happy with it: As long as you live a standard life, get a mortgage, a house, children, pay taxes to support the ever growing police state, nothing will happen to you.
- dreamweapon 12y agoDownvoter: I'll take that as a compliment.
- dreamweapon 12y agoYeah keep going, if it makes you feel good. The fun part about dealing with people who are attracted to catchy slogans and binaristic thought generally is that they tend to get really touchy when you call them on it. Which is what seems to be happening, here.
- aburan28 12y agoQuite to the contrary it seems, but I digress.
- eevilspock 12y ago"That's quite an oversimplification." is no less a catchy slogan, and labeling it "binaristic thought" is no less binary if that's all you write.
- dreamweapon 12y agoSorry if it came across that way, but if so, it wasn't my intention. It's just that I find it weirdly and sadly ironic that quite frequently, among those in our community who are the most strident and radicalized in their opposition to the surveillance state -- we find such incredibly simplistic and/or manipulative styles of thinking, and an impulsive tendency to resort to various forms of intellectual bullying... that are the standard tools of the systems that they fancy themselves to be in opposition against.
- tptacek 12y agoComplaining (or even mentioning) downvotes is usually a bad rhetorical strategy. Just ignore the votes altogether.
- dreamweapon 12y ago